Feature of SDL

Hello guys

I think its time for a discussion to be made regarding the future of
SDL.From what i understand its almost ready for at least a Beta
release but no one is willing to fix remaining bugs.How do you think
this project shall continue? If Sam or Ryan don’t have time to work on
the project any more, maybe its better to start thinking of ways to
continue the project in another way.It really makes me sad looking at
SDL not going forward any more.Sam,Ryan, What do you think?

Best Regards
Dimitris Zenios

p.s:I would like to here everybodys thoughts regarding this matter.

OK, my suggestion: maybe it is time to apply some community-based project
management.

=> What bugs need to be fixed? What features aren’t fully implemented?
Generate a list of blocker bugs or bugs that personally “bug” you in your
project. Elect person with commit access to maintain/publish the list, if
they are willing. Otherwise, someone else can volunteer to keep the list of
bugs.

=> Does a fix exist already?
Check mailing list, personal HG archives. Dig up patches. Write one if
possible.

=> Does a bugzilla entry exist for it?
If not, make it, add to list, notify maintainer(s).

=> Is it fixed already?
If you can test it, then test it. Let maintainer(s) know they are fixed.

=> What bugs are left?
Maintainers should be able to publish a list of bugzilla entries that can
be referenced easily so a release countdown can happen.

PatrickOn Wed, May 23, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Dimitris Zenios <dimitris.zenios at gmail.com>wrote:

Hello guys

I think its time for a discussion to be made regarding the future of
SDL.From what i understand its almost ready for at least a Beta
release but no one is willing to fix remaining bugs.How do you think
this project shall continue? If Sam or Ryan don’t have time to work on
the project any more, maybe its better to start thinking of ways to
continue the project in another way.It really makes me sad looking at
SDL not going forward any more.Sam,Ryan, What do you think?

Best Regards
Dimitris Zenios

p.s:I would like to here everybodys thoughts regarding this matter.


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Hi,

I will be using SDL 1.2+OGL forever!
Just my 2 cents…

JeZ+Lee
16BitSoft
Video Game Design Studio
www.16BitSoft.comOn 05/23/2012 05:50 PM, Dimitris Zenios wrote:

Hello guys

I think its time for a discussion to be made regarding the future of
SDL.From what i understand its almost ready for at least a Beta
release but no one is willing to fix remaining bugs.How do you think
this project shall continue? If Sam or Ryan don’t have time to work on
the project any more, maybe its better to start thinking of ways to
continue the project in another way.It really makes me sad looking at
SDL not going forward any more.Sam,Ryan, What do you think?

Best Regards
Dimitris Zenios

p.s:I would like to here everybodys thoughts regarding this matter.


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Even SDL 1.2 without proper development it will not be able to run on
newer system.That’s why we need a maintainer.On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Jesse Palser wrote:

On 05/23/2012 05:50 PM, Dimitris Zenios wrote:

Hello guys

I think its time for a discussion to be made regarding the future of
SDL.From what i understand its almost ready for at least a Beta
release but no one is willing to fix remaining bugs.How do you think
this project shall continue? If Sam or Ryan don’t have time to work on
the project any more, maybe its better to start thinking of ways to
continue the project in another way.It really makes me sad looking at
SDL not going forward any more.Sam,Ryan, What do you think?

Best Regards
Dimitris Zenios

p.s:I would like to here everybodys thoughts regarding this matter.


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Hi,

I will be using SDL 1.2+OGL forever!
Just my 2 cents…

JeZ+Lee
16BitSoft
Video Game Design Studio
www.16BitSoft.com


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have an
iOS game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D
development environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that,
people have worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go
on top of that. Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same
framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch
goes in or out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s
say is. There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance
to do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they are
supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot.
Same with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment
of the current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he
needs us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we
deal with individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-AlexOn Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have an
iOS game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use – mine
for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that, people
have worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that. Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement still
isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is really
the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes in or
out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance to
do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they are
supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot. Same
with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of the
current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian

_____________**
SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/**listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.orghttp://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven projectOn Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we deal with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have an iOS
game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which I’ve
put up here before.) ?It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use – mine
for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. ?After that, people have
worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of that.
?Then iOS should be good. ?Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement still
isn’t in. ?That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. ?There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is really
the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes in or
out. ?He needs to make a decision. ?I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
?There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance to
do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they are
supposed to do. ?Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. ?Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot. Same
with Ryan. ?This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of the
current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this project
and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably accountable for
the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem. A
single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a Kickstarter
project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do believe
we should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding
(hopefully they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime
begin setting up a community base as proposed preiously.On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios <dimitris.zenios at gmail.com wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can
one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be shifting
to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he
needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we deal
with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have
an iOS

game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve

put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine

for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that, people
have

worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that.

Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still

isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really

the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes
in or

out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance
to

do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they are
supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot. Same
with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of
the

current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I don’t think we need a dedicated developer - that seems like overkill for
someone who would only (Essentially) test patches and approve features. A
community-driven model would work just as well for this, and it wouldn’t
cost us a dime. It would just feel like we’re overcomplicating a simple
problem, but I may be completely wrong.

-AlexOn Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com>wrote:

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this project
and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably accountable for
the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem. A
single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a Kickstarter
project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do believe
we should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding
(hopefully they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime
begin setting up a community base as proposed preiously.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios < dimitris.zenios at gmail.com> wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can
one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be
shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he
needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we deal
with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have
an iOS

game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve

put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine

for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that,
people have

worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that.

Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still

isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really

the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes
in or

out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance
to

do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they
are

supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot.
Same

with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of
the

current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Overkill certainly if that is all they do; I assume an individual
contracted would not necessarily do these tasks alone, or at all.

In my eyes the problem is that, with good reason, there is no project
accountability. If you would tend to agree with this I would appreciate
hearing alternate ideas on how to solve it. :)On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

I don’t think we need a dedicated developer - that seems like overkill for
someone who would only (Essentially) test patches and approve features. A
community-driven model would work just as well for this, and it wouldn’t
cost us a dime. It would just feel like we’re overcomplicating a simple
problem, but I may be completely wrong.

-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Nicholas Rishel <@Nicholas_Rishel>wrote:

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this project
and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably accountable for
the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem. A
single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a Kickstarter
project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do believe
we should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding
(hopefully they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime
begin setting up a community base as proposed preiously.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios < dimitris.zenios at gmail.com> wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can
one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be
shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he
needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we deal
with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app
store

(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have
an iOS

game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve

put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine

for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that,
people have

worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that.

Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still

isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really

the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes
in or

out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the
chance to

do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they
are

supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot.
Same

with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of
the

current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
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http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


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http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


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I think the problem in question is “how do we get community patches into
SDL, and what process needs to take place?”

We have a pile of patches that are “in the backlogs” with no one with the
time or repo access to push them ahead.

Here is what I propose for a process:

  1. A patch must contain: a test case (demonstrates where SDL is broken
    or could be sped up, or whatever), the patch *.diff file (that’s how we’re
    doing patches, right?), and what OS the problem is reported on.
  2. We have some sort of list where people apply with their current
    system specs, and their level of expertise
  3. After a patch is submitted, people with the appropriate expertise do
    a code review, make sure it’s going to do the fix and not make another hole
    in SDL (this may be hard to manage from a community stand point).
  4. A patch gets submitted, people who have a system where the problem
    can be detected get notified to test it.
  5. Wait until at least 3 unique people test and confirm the patch is
    good.
  6. Pull request into main repo.

It would require some work, but then it’s based on people’s ability to
contribute, and I think it’s efficient enough that we can get things moving
fairly quickly. We may need Sam to add some sort of developer zone to the
website, but if we can get something like this up, I think the whole
community would benefit.

I know it sounds a little complicated, and maybe we can hone these ideas
down to something a little more user-friendly.

Thoughts?
-AlexOn Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com>wrote:

Overkill certainly if that is all they do; I assume an individual
contracted would not necessarily do these tasks alone, or at all.

In my eyes the problem is that, with good reason, there is no project
accountability. If you would tend to agree with this I would appreciate
hearing alternate ideas on how to solve it. :slight_smile:

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

I don’t think we need a dedicated developer - that seems like overkill
for someone who would only (Essentially) test patches and approve features.
A community-driven model would work just as well for this, and it wouldn’t
cost us a dime. It would just feel like we’re overcomplicating a simple
problem, but I may be completely wrong.

-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com>wrote:

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this project
and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably accountable for
the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem. A
single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a Kickstarter
project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do believe
we should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding
(hopefully they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime
begin setting up a community base as proposed preiously.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios < dimitris.zenios at gmail.com> wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs
can one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be
shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think
he needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we
deal with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app
store

(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I
have an iOS

game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve

put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine

for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that,
people have

worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that.

Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still

isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really

the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch
goes in or

out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the
chance to

do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they
are

supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the
trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot.
Same

with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment
of the

current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


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The problem is that by only adding patches will not move SDL
forward.Sure it will fix some problems but in the end it will stay at
a point where the project will be stalled again.SDL needs constant
development and I agree with Nicholas that a dedicated developer or a
team of developers will be needed for the project to flourish and move
forward.

I also agree with Alex that a workflow on how patches will be imported
to main repo is a must.Maybe we can start with that and continue from
there.On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

I think the problem in question is “how do we get community patches into
SDL, and what process needs to take place?”

We have a pile of patches that are “in the backlogs” with no one with the
time or repo access to push them ahead.

Here is what I?propose?for a process:

A patch must contain: a test case (demonstrates where SDL is broken or could
be sped up, or whatever), the patch *.diff file (that’s how we’re doing
patches, right?), and what OS the problem is reported on.
We have some sort of list where people apply with their current system
specs, and their level of expertise
After a patch is submitted, people with the appropriate expertise do a code
review, make sure it’s going to do the fix and not make another hole in SDL
(this may be hard to manage from a community stand point).
A patch gets submitted, people who have a system where the problem can be
detected get notified to test it.
Wait until at least 3 unique people test and confirm the patch is good.
Pull request into main repo.

It would require some work, but then it’s based on people’s ability to
contribute, and I think it’s efficient enough that we can get things moving
fairly quickly. ?We may need Sam to add some sort of developer zone to the
website, but if we can get something like this up, I think the whole
community would benefit.

I know it sounds a little complicated, and maybe we can hone these ideas
down to something a little more user-friendly.

Thoughts?
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

Overkill certainly if that is all they do; I assume an individual
contracted would not necessarily do these tasks alone, or at all.

In my eyes the problem is that, with good reason, there is no project
accountability. If you would tend to agree with this I would appreciate
hearing alternate ideas on how to solve it. :slight_smile:

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

I don’t think we need a dedicated developer - that seems like overkill
for someone who would only (Essentially) test patches and approve features.
?A community-driven model would work just as well for this, and it wouldn’t
cost us a dime. ?It would just feel like we’re overcomplicating a simple
problem, but I may be completely wrong.

-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this project
and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably accountable for
the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem. A
single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a Kickstarter
project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do believe we
should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding (hopefully
they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime begin setting
up a community base as proposed preiously.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios <@Dimitris_Zenios> wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that
describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs
can one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be
shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think
he needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we
deal with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app
store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I
have an iOS
game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which
I’ve
put up here before.) ?It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D development
environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use –
mine
for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. ?After that,
people have
worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of
that.
?Then iOS should be good. ?Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse movement
still
isn’t in. ?That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. ?There
are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really
the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch
goes in or
out. ?He needs to make a decision. ?I’m not sure what Ryan’s say is.
?There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the
chance to
do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what they
are
supposed to do. ?Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the
trunk.

NOW: Important notes. ?Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot.
Same
with Ryan. ?This is not to construed as anything but an assessment
of the
current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


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It is possible to commit new features in patches, too, so the patch process
I suggested is just as applicable, and the process wouldn’t have to be any
different

-AlexOn Thu, May 24, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Dimitris Zenios <dimitris.zenios at gmail.com>wrote:

The problem is that by only adding patches will not move SDL
forward.Sure it will fix some problems but in the end it will stay at
a point where the project will be stalled again.SDL needs constant
development and I agree with Nicholas that a dedicated developer or a
team of developers will be needed for the project to flourish and move
forward.

I also agree with Alex that a workflow on how patches will be imported
to main repo is a must.Maybe we can start with that and continue from
there.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

I think the problem in question is “how do we get community patches into
SDL, and what process needs to take place?”

We have a pile of patches that are “in the backlogs” with no one with the
time or repo access to push them ahead.

Here is what I propose for a process:

A patch must contain: a test case (demonstrates where SDL is broken or
could
be sped up, or whatever), the patch *.diff file (that’s how we’re doing
patches, right?), and what OS the problem is reported on.
We have some sort of list where people apply with their current system
specs, and their level of expertise
After a patch is submitted, people with the appropriate expertise do a
code
review, make sure it’s going to do the fix and not make another hole in
SDL
(this may be hard to manage from a community stand point).
A patch gets submitted, people who have a system where the problem can be
detected get notified to test it.
Wait until at least 3 unique people test and confirm the patch is good.
Pull request into main repo.

It would require some work, but then it’s based on people’s ability to
contribute, and I think it’s efficient enough that we can get things
moving
fairly quickly. We may need Sam to add some sort of developer zone to
the
website, but if we can get something like this up, I think the whole
community would benefit.

I know it sounds a little complicated, and maybe we can hone these ideas
down to something a little more user-friendly.

Thoughts?
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Nicholas Rishel <rishel.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

Overkill certainly if that is all they do; I assume an individual
contracted would not necessarily do these tasks alone, or at all.

In my eyes the problem is that, with good reason, there is no project
accountability. If you would tend to agree with this I would appreciate
hearing alternate ideas on how to solve it. :slight_smile:

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

I don’t think we need a dedicated developer - that seems like overkill
for someone who would only (Essentially) test patches and approve
features.

A community-driven model would work just as well for this, and it
wouldn’t

cost us a dime. It would just feel like we’re overcomplicating a
simple

problem, but I may be completely wrong.

-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Nicholas Rishel < rishel.nick at gmail.com> wrote:

A dedicated developer for the project would help SDL significantly. As
already stated, Sam and Ryan have already dedicated so much to this
project

and owe nothing to us. In the end no one who is justifiably
accountable for

the project, and adding a community base does not solve this problem.
A

single paid, full-time developer could fill this void.

I would propose that we consider investing the effort into a
Kickstarter

project to organize funding for such a role, specifically proposing
Kickstarter due to it being a publicly accepted “middleman”. I do
believe we

should elicit input from Sam and Ryan on this before proceeding
(hopefully

they’ll notice this conversation), and should in the meantime begin
setting

up a community base as proposed preiously.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Dimitris Zenios <dimitris.zenios at gmail.com> wrote:

I totally agree that the development should shift to a more
community-driven project

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Alex Barry <@Alex_Barry> wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really)
that

describes or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs
can one
patch include, what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be
shifting to
a community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think
he needs
us to come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we
deal with
individual patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes <ggadwa at charter.net wrote:

I’ve used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app
store
(the only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I
have an iOS
game waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it,
which

I’ve
put up here before.) It’s also used in dim3, my free 3D
development

environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use

mine
for instance – the iOS stuff would be ready to go. After that,
people have
worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top
of

that.
Then iOS should be good. Android can just use the same
framework.

SDL 2 still isn’t useful on windows because relative mouse
movement

still
isn’t in. That’s the big hold up.

Here’s the problem, and I’ll be pretty frank about this. There
are
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is
really
the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch
goes in or
out. He needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what Ryan’s say
is.

There’s no clear chain of command except that it’s Sam’s baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the
chance to
do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there’s competing patches, but most do what
they

are
supposed to do. Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the
trunk.

NOW: Important notes. Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a
lot.

Same
with Ryan. This is not to construed as anything but an assessment
of the
current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian


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On, Thu May 24, 2012, Dimitris Zenios wrote:

The problem is that by only adding patches will not move SDL
forward.Sure it will fix some problems but in the end it will stay at
a point where the project will be stalled again.SDL needs constant
development and I agree with Nicholas that a dedicated developer or a
team of developers will be needed for the project to flourish and move
forward.

[…]

Paying people for doing the work does not necessarily mean they

  • do the work that is needed
  • are worth the money
  • will drive the project forward
  • do not loose interest, if their personal goals are not met

Especially, if they do not have any pressure from the customers ;-).

It’d be better, if there are people, who actually want to keep SDL alive
and bring it forward, with all the ups and downs of such a
community-driven project. It could be loosely organised like that:

  • core team (Sam, Ryan, whoever) to say yay or nay as final instance,
    if problems within the development can not be sorted out by the
    developers with commit bits or argues arise within the team
  • a bunch of developers with commit bits, who can and are willing to
    develop, review patches, review extension to be put upstream, etc.
  • all minions, who love to work with it, have ideas for it, submit
    patches and enhancements via the tracker or mailing list and so on
    and so forth

Cheers
Marcus
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When i was talking about a developer or a team of developers, i didnt
mention payment, for the same reason Marcus pointed above.I was
thinking of people much like Keith Packard is for X Windows
System.People that will develop,mentor,approve,review and anything
else that has to do with SDL and pathes as such.On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Marcus von Appen wrote:

On, Thu May 24, 2012, Dimitris Zenios wrote:

The problem is that by only adding patches will not move SDL
forward.Sure it will fix some problems but in the end it will stay at
a point where the project will be stalled again.SDL needs constant
development and I agree with Nicholas that a dedicated developer or a
team of developers will be needed for the project to flourish and move
forward.

[…]

Paying people for doing the work does not necessarily mean they

  • do the work that is needed
  • are worth the money
  • will drive the project forward
  • do not loose interest, if their personal goals are not met

Especially, if they do not have any pressure from the customers ;-).

It’d be better, if there are people, who actually want to keep SDL alive
and bring it forward, with all the ups and downs of such a
community-driven project. It could be loosely organised like that:

?- core team (Sam, Ryan, whoever) to say yay or nay as final instance,
? ?if problems within the development can not be sorted out by the
? ?developers with commit bits or argues arise within the team
?- a bunch of developers with commit bits, who can and are willing to
? ?develop, review patches, review extension to be put upstream, etc.
?- all minions, who love to work with it, have ideas for it, submit
? ?patches and enhancements via the tracker or mailing list and so on
? ?and so forth

Cheers
Marcus


SDL mailing list
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I say cut the release as is. We know it’s imperfect, and we’ll help fix it.On 05/24/2012 10:19 AM, Alex Barry wrote:

Do we have any sort of documentation (by Sam or anyone, really) that describes
or demonstrates what should be in a patch (how many bugs can one patch include,
what sort of review process should be use, etc etc)?
I think Sam made if fairly clear a few months ago that we’ll be shifting to a
community-driven project, rather than a one man show, but I think he needs us to
come up with some strict but work-able guidelines on how we deal with individual
patches (submitting and reviewing).
-Alex

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Brian Barnes <ggadwa at charter.net <mailto:ggadwa at charter.net>> wrote:

I've used SDL 2 successfully on both an OS X game in the OS X app store (the
only problem is the cmd-q beep, which is in bugzilla) and I have an iOS game
waiting for review right now using it (I had to patch it, which I've put up
here before.)  It's also used in dim3, my free 3D development environment.

If somebody somewhere would make a decision on which patch to use -- mine
for instance -- the iOS stuff would be ready to go.  After that, people have
worked up patches for the game center problem, that can go on top of that.
  Then iOS should be good.  Android can just use the same framework.

SDL 2 still isn't useful on windows because relative mouse movement still
isn't in.  That's the big hold up.

Here's the problem, and I'll be pretty frank about this.  There *are*
patches that will fill in the missing holes, but nobody but Sam is really
the guy (at this point) that has the authority to say what patch goes in or
out.  He needs to make a decision.  I'm not sure what Ryan's say is.
  There's no clear chain of command except that it's Sam's baby.

I think we in the community can fix the holes, we just need the chance to do it.

Like the iOS stuff, there's competing patches, but most do what they are
supposed to do.  Just somebody has to say OK and land it in the trunk.

NOW: Important notes.  Sam owes us nothing, and has given us a lot. Same
with Ryan.  This is not to construed as anything but an assessment of the
current state of affairs as I know it, and could be wrong.

[>] Brian

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I think the problem in question is “how do we get community patches into
SDL, and what process needs to take place?”

We have a pile of patches that are “in the backlogs” with no one with the
time or repo access to push them ahead.

Here is what I propose for a process:

  1. A patch must contain: a test case (demonstrates where SDL is broken
    or could be sped up, or whatever), the patch *.diff file (that’s how
    we’re
    doing patches, right?), and what OS the problem is reported on.
  2. We have some sort of list where people apply with their current
    system specs, and their level of expertise
  3. After a patch is submitted, people with the appropriate expertise do
    a code review, make sure it’s going to do the fix and not make another
    hole
    in SDL (this may be hard to manage from a community stand point).
  4. A patch gets submitted, people who have a system where the problem
    can be detected get notified to test it.
  5. Wait until at least 3 unique people test and confirm the patch is
    good.
  6. Pull request into main repo.

It would require some work, but then it’s based on people’s ability to
contribute, and I think it’s efficient enough that we can get things moving
fairly quickly. We may need Sam to add some sort of developer zone to the
website, but if we can get something like this up, I think the whole
community would benefit.

I know it sounds a little complicated, and maybe we can hone these ideas
down to something a little more user-friendly.

Thoughts?
-Alex

What about a mob branch: does Mercurial support them (Google didn’t
provide a quick answer), would one be useful for speeding up
development? I’m certain that your outline would work with a core team
(which could probably be rounded up from the list), but I’m not
convinced it would work with a more vaguely defined community (too
concretely organized).> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 15:00:32 -0400

From: Alex Barry <alex.barry at gmail.com>
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] Feature of SDL

I don’t think we can avoid the fact that there will need to be somebody
at the head of this with final authority who can spend the time.

For instance, the iOS patch stuff – there’s something like 3 competing
patches, and unless we want to have some kind of vote system, nobody but
a project leader can solve these problems. This isn’t an ego problem,
there are multiple ways to do this patch, and each has pros and cons.

The next hurdle is who could do this? Nobody is asking me, and I’d turn
them down because I have my own projects (and the big one is another
project with a community that needs it!), and the very reason I’m using
SDL is to make it easier on me. I suspect we are all like that.

As I said before, Sam gave us a lot and owes us nothing. Same with
Ryan. Nobody should be demanding anything.

So, this might seem defeatist, but right now I’d more vote for just
finding a way to get in the patches that’ll make SDL 2 useable and worry
about the future later. I’m not sure I see a path out. The iOS patch,
an iOS game center patch, relative mouse movement in win32, etc. The
big things.

I’m trying to be realistic but if somebody here doesn’t step up and
control isn’t handed over, then we’re in trouble. And I don’t blame
anybody for not stepping up, it’ll be a large chunk of their time. For
this, Sam (and anybody else that contributed) should get a lot of credit.

[>] Brian

I’ve been dealing with a lot of stuff at work (see the 38 Studios news),
but I am still here, and I am planning to pull some patches in from
Bugzilla to address issues.

Also, Gabriel has graciously volunteered to help with maintenance so there
should be a steady stream of improvements.

I really appreciate the community stepping up, and you’re welcome to create
a repo as a staging area for community reviewing and testing patches!

Cheers!On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I don’t think we can avoid the fact that there will need to be somebody at
the head of this with final authority who can spend the time.

For instance, the iOS patch stuff – there’s something like 3 competing
patches, and unless we want to have some kind of vote system, nobody but a
project leader can solve these problems. This isn’t an ego problem, there
are multiple ways to do this patch, and each has pros and cons.

The next hurdle is who could do this? Nobody is asking me, and I’d turn
them down because I have my own projects (and the big one is another
project with a community that needs it!), and the very reason I’m using SDL
is to make it easier on me. I suspect we are all like that.

As I said before, Sam gave us a lot and owes us nothing. Same with Ryan.
Nobody should be demanding anything.

So, this might seem defeatist, but right now I’d more vote for just
finding a way to get in the patches that’ll make SDL 2 useable and worry
about the future later. I’m not sure I see a path out. The iOS patch, an
iOS game center patch, relative mouse movement in win32, etc. The big
things.

I’m trying to be realistic but if somebody here doesn’t step up and
control isn’t handed over, then we’re in trouble. And I don’t blame
anybody for not stepping up, it’ll be a large chunk of their time. For
this, Sam (and anybody else that contributed) should get a lot of credit.

[>] Brian

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I personally am torn, because on the one hand, this project deserves full
time attention, but on the other hand I need to get contract work to make
sure there’s food on the table. :slight_smile:

If somebody does want to step up and manage SDL, I’ll be happy to go over
in detail what that means and if they still can and want to, we can start
training and transition. :slight_smile:

See ya!On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Sam Lantinga <@slouken> wrote:

I’ve been dealing with a lot of stuff at work (see the 38 Studios news),
but I am still here, and I am planning to pull some patches in from
Bugzilla to address issues.

Also, Gabriel has graciously volunteered to help with maintenance so there
should be a steady stream of improvements.

I really appreciate the community stepping up, and you’re welcome to
create a repo as a staging area for community reviewing and testing patches!

Cheers!

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Brian Barnes wrote:

I don’t think we can avoid the fact that there will need to be somebody
at the head of this with final authority who can spend the time.

For instance, the iOS patch stuff – there’s something like 3 competing
patches, and unless we want to have some kind of vote system, nobody but a
project leader can solve these problems. This isn’t an ego problem, there
are multiple ways to do this patch, and each has pros and cons.

The next hurdle is who could do this? Nobody is asking me, and I’d turn
them down because I have my own projects (and the big one is another
project with a community that needs it!), and the very reason I’m using SDL
is to make it easier on me. I suspect we are all like that.

As I said before, Sam gave us a lot and owes us nothing. Same with Ryan.
Nobody should be demanding anything.

So, this might seem defeatist, but right now I’d more vote for just
finding a way to get in the patches that’ll make SDL 2 useable and worry
about the future later. I’m not sure I see a path out. The iOS patch, an
iOS game center patch, relative mouse movement in win32, etc. The big
things.

I’m trying to be realistic but if somebody here doesn’t step up and
control isn’t handed over, then we’re in trouble. And I don’t blame
anybody for not stepping up, it’ll be a large chunk of their time. For
this, Sam (and anybody else that contributed) should get a lot of credit.

[>] Brian

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