"galaxy gameworks" charging for a commercial licen

Humor me?

Jonny DOn Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tres Walsh <tres.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:

But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a particular implementation
without the consent of SDL authors.

He was pretty straightforward.

From: sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org]
On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:37 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

I don’t follow this exactly, Andre. I can steal any code I want from SDL
and use it without consent. Can you qualify that further?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Andre Leiradella wrote:
On 17/02/2010 19:57, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

Do you believe that ideas and expressions of thoughts are property?

Well, I do not think ideas are properties, but I do think that their
implementations are.

Take any product, say Kindle. It’s an idea: an e-book reader. There were
other e-book readers on the market before it, and others are coming. But
the
particular “implementation” Kindle uses should be protected because Amazon
has probably put a lot of money on it’s hardware, software, prototypes etc.
(Research & Development) If anyone could reverse-engineer Kindle and use
the
exact same implementation (read: steal) then why would anyone invest in new
technology? Not counting that it’s the implementation that makes the
difference between different instances of the same idea.

As another example, nothing can stop anyone from creating a multi-platform,
direct media layer. But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a
particular implementation without the consent of SDL authors.

Cheers,

Andre


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

no one can steal code from SDL
without the consent of SDL authors.

And what’s the deal with airline food?From: sdl-bounces@lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:07 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

Humor me?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tres Walsh <@Tres_Walsh> wrote:

But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a particular implementation
without the consent of SDL authors.
He was pretty straightforward.

From: sdl-bounces@lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:37 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen
I don’t follow this exactly, Andre. ?I can steal any code I want from SDL
and use it without consent. ?Can you qualify that further?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Andre Leiradella wrote:
On 17/02/2010 19:57, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

Do you believe that ideas and expressions of thoughts are property?

?
Well, I do not think ideas are properties, but I do think that their
implementations are.

Take any product, say Kindle. It’s an idea: an e-book reader. There were
other e-book readers on the market before it, and others are coming. But the
particular “implementation” Kindle uses should be protected because Amazon
has probably put a lot of money on it’s hardware, software, prototypes etc.
(Research & Development) If anyone could reverse-engineer Kindle and use the
exact same implementation (read: steal) then why would anyone invest in new
technology? Not counting that it’s the implementation that makes the
difference between different instances of the same idea.

As another example, nothing can stop anyone from creating a multi-platform,
direct media layer. But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a
particular implementation without the consent of SDL authors.

Cheers,

Andre


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Tres drole.

Jonny DOn Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Tres Walsh <tres.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:

no one can steal code from SDL
without the consent of SDL authors.

And what’s the deal with airline food?

From: sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org]
On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:07 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

Humor me?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tres Walsh <tres.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:

But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a particular implementation
without the consent of SDL authors.
He was pretty straightforward.

From: sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org]
On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:37 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen
I don’t follow this exactly, Andre. I can steal any code I want from SDL
and use it without consent. Can you qualify that further?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Andre Leiradella wrote:
On 17/02/2010 19:57, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

Do you believe that ideas and expressions of thoughts are property?

Well, I do not think ideas are properties, but I do think that their
implementations are.

Take any product, say Kindle. It’s an idea: an e-book reader. There were
other e-book readers on the market before it, and others are coming. But
the
particular “implementation” Kindle uses should be protected because Amazon
has probably put a lot of money on it’s hardware, software, prototypes etc.
(Research & Development) If anyone could reverse-engineer Kindle and use
the
exact same implementation (read: steal) then why would anyone invest in new
technology? Not counting that it’s the implementation that makes the
difference between different instances of the same idea.

As another example, nothing can stop anyone from creating a multi-platform,
direct media layer. But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a
particular implementation without the consent of SDL authors.

Cheers,

Andre


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Ok, I’m not a lawyer but that deserves some clarification.

You can steal code from any code released under the L/GPL license. But
the license does enforce that you release any derivative work under the
same license so you cannot steal code to use in a closed source project.On 18/02/2010 00:37, Jonathan Dearborn wrote:

I don’t follow this exactly, Andre. I can steal any code I want from
SDL and use it without consent. Can you qualify that further?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Andre Leiradella <aleirade at sct.microlink.com.br <mailto:aleirade at sct.microlink.com.br>> wrote:

On 17/02/2010 19:57, zoltan at bendor.com.au <mailto:zoltan at bendor.com.au> wrote:


    Do you believe that ideas and expressions of thoughts are
    property?


Well, I do not think ideas are properties, but I do think that
their implementations are.

Take any product, say Kindle. It's an idea: an e-book reader.
There were other e-book readers on the market before it, and
others are coming. But the particular "implementation" Kindle uses
should be protected because Amazon has probably put a lot of money
on it's hardware, software, prototypes etc. (Research &
Development) If anyone could reverse-engineer Kindle and use the
exact same implementation (read: steal) then why would anyone
invest in new technology? Not counting that it's the
implementation that makes the difference between different
instances of the same idea.

As another example, nothing can stop anyone from creating a
multi-platform, direct media layer. But no one can steal code from
SDL to use in a particular implementation without the consent of
SDL authors.

Cheers,

Andre

_______________________________________________
SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org <mailto:SDL at lists.libsdl.org>
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

no one can steal code from SDL
without the consent of SDL authors.

And what’s the deal with airline food?

What?

If you want to take this discussion further, please contact me
privately. This is way off-topic.On 18/02/2010 01:09, Tres Walsh wrote:

From: sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 7:07 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

Humor me?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tres Walsh<tres.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:

But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a particular implementation

without the consent of SDL authors.
He was pretty straightforward.

From: sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-bounces at lists.libsdl.org] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Dearborn
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:37 PM
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen
I don’t follow this exactly, Andre. I can steal any code I want from SDL
and use it without consent. Can you qualify that further?

Jonny D

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Andre Leiradella wrote:
On 17/02/2010 19:57, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

Do you believe that ideas and expressions of thoughts are property?

Well, I do not think ideas are properties, but I do think that their
implementations are.

Take any product, say Kindle. It’s an idea: an e-book reader. There were
other e-book readers on the market before it, and others are coming. But the
particular “implementation” Kindle uses should be protected because Amazon
has probably put a lot of money on it’s hardware, software, prototypes etc.
(Research& Development) If anyone could reverse-engineer Kindle and use the
exact same implementation (read: steal) then why would anyone invest in new
technology? Not counting that it’s the implementation that makes the
difference between different instances of the same idea.

As another example, nothing can stop anyone from creating a multi-platform,
direct media layer. But no one can steal code from SDL to use in a
particular implementation without the consent of SDL authors.

Cheers,

Andre


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

sorry, but as an American I equate GPL with the Patriot Act

I see nothing at all in common between the two.

I don’t expect everyone to agree, but for the most part, yes, I
think people who give up freedom on the name of freedom are
idiots.

On that point I agree completely. But there is no discernable connection
between that and your claim that GPL and the (misnamed) Patriot Act are equal
in any way.

Zoltan’s reply elaborates more on this, so I won’t repeat it here other than
to emphasize that ideas are not and cannot be “property”. It’s not just a
moral issue, it’s physically impossible to “own” an idea.

JeffOn Wednesday 17 February 2010 11:22, Jacob Meuser wrote:

The GPL gives you rights that had
been taken away from you by the government.

not as the author. as someone else, maybe. as the author, you give up
rights.

sorry, I won’t debate this any more. why? because without authors
of said works, there would be nothing to argue about.On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 08:57:34AM +1100, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:


@Jacob_Meuser
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

Okay, I am an author of said works (http://home.pacbell.net/theposts), so
there is something to debate. But let’s do it privately; I think you’ve
embarrassed yourself enough on this forum.

JeffOn Wednesday 17 February 2010 22:08, Jacob Meuser wrote:

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 08:57:34AM +1100, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

The GPL gives you rights that had
been taken away from you by the government.

not as the author. as someone else, maybe. as the author, you give up
rights.

sorry, I won’t debate this any more. why? because without authors
of said works, there would be nothing to argue about.

Jeff Post wrote:

Zoltan’s reply elaborates more on this, so I won’t repeat it here other than
to emphasize that ideas are not and cannot be “property”. It’s not just a
moral issue, it’s physically impossible to “own” an idea.

I agree, although possibly only up to a point, depending on how much
emphasis one places on the physicality test.

In some previous posts, I seemed to see software patents and software
licenses (via copyright) being lumped into the same bin.

I think Michael Abrash did a fine job summarizing the problems with
software patents over a decade ago in the intro to his article,
3-D Clipping and Other Thoughts:

http://www.phatcode.net/res/224/files/html/ch65/65-01.html

We have indeed already arrived in the future extrapolated by Abrash in
the article: “that eventually everyone will own parts of our communal
knowledge base, and that programming will become in large part a
process of properly identifying and compensating each and every owner
of the techniques you use.”

One finds it is becoming increasingly difficult to solve any interesting
programming problem, without after-the-fact discovering that one has
employed techniques that someone else claims to own.

The other day I was discussing an idea with my boss about how to
optimize the way our software deals with large bitmaps. He liked my
idea but reminded me it was the sort of thing someone may have patented.

A quick search on some random free-of-charge patent search website
revealed that indeed, Adobe has a patent on employing copy-on-write
semantics on a chunked bitmap to minimize storage requirements while
preserving deltas, and Google has a patent on demand-streaming sub-
regions of a chunked bitmap, etc.

Both of which are too close to my own idea for comfort, an idea which
I came up with in a few moments of thinking how to improve our own
software. An idea which I’m confident most any of us would have
similarly arrived at when faced with the same constraints.

Software patents are a loathsome aberration, detrimental to our
industry, and should be abolished.

In other words - Yes, I agree: it should not be possible to own ideas.

HOWEVER, software licenses (via copyright) are different enough from
patents that they should be evaluated separately.

And this is where the physicality test worries me. Some folks will
claim that a copyrighted sequence of bits is just as ephemeral as a
patented technique. And, in our age of electronic duplication that
may in some ways be true, physically speaking.

But the key difference between patented software techniques vs.
copyright is exemplified rather well in Abrash’s Frank Herbert
anecdote:

In the introduction to one of his books, Frank Herbert, author
of Dune, told how he had once been approached by a friend who
claimed he (the friend) had a killer idea for an SF story, and
offered to tell it to Herbert. In return, Herbert had to agree
that if he used the idea in a story, he?d split the money from
the story with this fellow. Herbert?s response was that ideas
were a dime a dozen; he had more story ideas than he could ever
write in a lifetime. The hard part was the writing, not the
ideas.

The hard part was the writing, not the ideas.

Anyway, this post has become more lengthy than I’d anticipated, but
essentially it is a plea not to lump patents and copyright in the
same bin in these discussions.

That said, while I personally support copyright, but loathe
software patents, I do also think some copyright reform is
warranted, due to occurrences like the following, which in my view
are straying almost entirely into patent-like territory:

http://www.thedailyswarm.com/headlines/men-work-found-guilty-plaigerizing-kookaburra-sits-old-gum-tree/

Anyway…

P.S. thanks, Sam, for SDL. :smiley:

Regards,

Bill

well, I certainly don’t feel embarrassed. I say what I mean and I mean
what I say. whether or not you understand what I’m saying is another
matter, and I’m certainly not embarrassed if you don’t get it.On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:23:36PM -0800, Jeff Post wrote:

On Wednesday 17 February 2010 22:08, Jacob Meuser wrote:

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 08:57:34AM +1100, zoltan at bendor.com.au wrote:

The GPL gives you rights that had
been taken away from you by the government.

not as the author. as someone else, maybe. as the author, you give up
rights.

sorry, I won’t debate this any more. why? because without authors
of said works, there would be nothing to argue about.

Okay, I am an author of said works (http://home.pacbell.net/theposts), so
there is something to debate. But let’s do it privately; I think you’ve
embarrassed yourself enough on this forum.


@Jacob_Meuser
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

And this topic sums up my disdain for the free/open source community as a whole (there’s some sections of it which I like).

As much as I love the idea of free/open source software, and as much as I love being able to play with the applications I use and customize them to my needs, I frickin hate the popular licenses.

GPL does not feel “free” to me at all. It’s just a complete reversal of closed software – rather than “this source is closed, fuck you” it’s "fuck you everything must be open-source. You can’t link to me and I can’t link to you if you’re not open source.

LGPL is definitely better – “if you’re closed source you must dynamically link to me; fuck you mass distributed software, I just made your life a little more complicated” – but not perfect

zlib and BSD licenses are nice – “here’s the source, I don’t give a fuck” – but that makes it tempting for users to improve your product and not send it back upstream, which would suck. On that note, however, even Apple was willing to do this much (they’ve released Darwin and XNU under their own license, afterall). Far from ideal for the developer.

“You can use this code however you want, but if you change it you must release your sources” – MPL is probably the best open source license to use, period. I wish it were more popular. For SDL it’s definitely the best one to use; at least for iPhone ports.

But, Sam’s giving us a great product for free – the least we can do is “donate” $100 for it on a system that costs $100 to develop on in the first place (actually, that’s kinda shitty, but it’s not hard to afford for a one-per-project fee).

Anyway, rather than return to this thread to argue my points like you other f/oss nuckleheads; I’m off to make more useful posts elsewhere now that I’ve given my two cents.

GPL does not feel “free” to me at all. It’s just a complete reversal of closed software – rather than “this source is closed, fuck you” it’s "fuck you everything must be open-source. You can’t link to me and I can’t link to you if you’re not open source.

“You can use this code however you want, but if you change it you must release your sources” – MPL is probably the best open source license to use, period. I wish it were more popular. For SDL it’s definitely the best one to use; at least for iPhone ports.

GPL and the FSF believe that everyone ought to be free, according to the FSF’s definition of freedom, and that their definition is perfect enough to impose upon everyone else.

MPL and the Mozilla Project believe that everyone ought to be free and that they’re free to define what that means to them, but that with that power comes the responsibility to use it well.

I think I like the MPL version of freedom better.>From: nfries88

Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

Mason Wheeler wrote:

GPL does not feel “free” to me at all. It’s just a complete reversal of closed software – rather than “this source is closed, fuck you” it’s "fuck you everything must be open-source. You can’t link to me and I can’t link to you if you’re not open source.

“You can use this code however you want, but if you change it you must release your sources” – MPL is probably the best open source license to use, period. I wish it were more popular. For SDL it’s definitely the best one to use; at least for iPhone ports.

GPL and the FSF believe that everyone ought to be free, according to the FSF’s definition of freedom, and that their definition is perfect enough to impose upon everyone else.

MPL and the Mozilla Project believe that everyone ought to be free and that they’re free to define what that means to them, but that with that power comes the responsibility to use it well.

I think I like the MPL version of freedom better.

I can’t agee more. I actually prefer the “BSD/zlib freedom”, but I can also see why that may not work.> > From: nfries88 <@Nathaniel_J_Fries>

Subject: Re: [SDL] “galaxy gameworks” charging for a commercial licen

a thread similar to the alt-f4 thread. just won’t die :confused:

nfries88 wrote:

And this topic sums up my disdain for the free/open source community as
a whole (there’s some sections of it which I like).
[snipped lots of bad language]

Do watch the language, boys… there’s no need to go postal.

If a prospective future employer ties you to your above e-mail,
then it wouldn’t make a very good impression. Or you might find
this ten years down the line and feel a little sheepish.

Different developers have different goals, and they choose the
closest matching license. Sometimes licenses doesn’t perfectly
embody a developer’s goals. Notice that Sam is smart enough to not
wade into this mess of a thread.

We should end this thread… it’s getting out of hand and out of
control. I say, it used to be quite a civilized mailing list…–
Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Yes, please take this topic off-line. I’m happy to answer any
specific questions off the mailing list, if you’re curious about my
opinion. :)On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:34 PM, KHMan wrote:

We should end this thread… it’s getting out of hand and out of control. I
say, it used to be quite a civilized mailing list…


-Sam Lantinga, Founder and President, Galaxy Gameworks LLC

The only discussion that seems to have come up is:
$500 static linking license? or MPL?

I don’t expect the SDL license itself to change to MPL, but that’s also an option.

Thanks for all you do, Sam.On 02/18/2010 05:57 PM, Sam Lantinga wrote:

Yes, please take this topic off-line. I’m happy to answer any
specific questions off the mailing list, if you’re curious about my
opinion. :slight_smile:

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:34 PM, KHMan wrote:

We should end this thread… it’s getting out of hand and out of control. I
say, it used to be quite a civilized mailing list…


LordHavoc
Author of DarkPlaces Quake1 engine - http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces
Co-designer of Nexuiz - http://alientrap.org/nexuiz
"War does not prove who is right, it proves who is left." - Unknown
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." - James Klass
"A game is a series of interesting choices." - Sid Meier

Hello !

Yes, please take this topic off-line. I’m happy to answer any
specific questions off the mailing list, if you’re curious about my
opinion. :slight_smile:

If possible publish your opinion, about the licensing stuff,
here as a last post to this thread.

People are interested in the reasons why you choose
to dual license SDL 1.3 instead of, for example just realease under LGPL

  • allow static linking, FLTK does this and it seems to be legal.

People are also interested why the license costs are as they are.

These questions maybe interesting for everybody and will save
you lots of replys :slight_smile:

CU

I guarantee that if he did, then it wouldn’t be the last post. It’s best to
stop here and ask him personally.

Jonny DOn Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Torsten Giebl wrote:

Hello !

Yes, please take this topic off-line. I’m happy to answer any
specific questions off the mailing list, if you’re curious about my
opinion. :slight_smile:

If possible publish your opinion, about the licensing stuff,
here as a last post to this thread.

People are interested in the reasons why you choose
to dual license SDL 1.3 instead of, for example just realease under LGPL

  • allow static linking, FLTK does this and it seems to be legal.

People are also interested why the license costs are as they are.

These questions maybe interesting for everybody and will save
you lots of replys :slight_smile:

CU


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

KHMan wrote:

nfries88 wrote:

And this topic sums up my disdain for the free/open source community as
a whole (there’s some sections of it which I like).
[snipped lots of bad language]

Do watch the language, boys… there’s no need to go postal.

If a prospective future employer ties you to your above e-mail,
then it wouldn’t make a very good impression. Or you might find
this ten years down the line and feel a little sheepish.

Different developers have different goals, and they choose the
closest matching license. Sometimes licenses doesn’t perfectly
embody a developer’s goals. Notice that Sam is smart enough to not
wade into this mess of a thread.

We should end this thread… it’s getting out of hand and out of
control. I say, it used to be quite a civilized mailing list…


Cheers,
Kein-Hong Man (esq.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Ah, I wasn’t losing my temper, I just tend to swear a lot when I’m putting things into layman’s terms (or summarizing a long and confusing piece of text as a sentence or two).