Legal issues again

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL licence right?

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by Loki are done with SDL right?

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source code for this programs… right?

So, the big question: Can I receive the source code for some of those games? and who and where should I ask?

Aur?lien Marchand,
Programmer/Analyst/Web Developer
Research Capital Corporation
Phone: (416) 860-7790
Reply to: aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com

Legal issues again…Hello Aurelien !!!

As i read it there are two ways :

  1. You link SDL static, then you must public the Source with your programm or game.
  2. You link SDL dynamic, then you have to add a little text file README.SDL or something to
    your Programm.

I hope that is correct.

CU>“Aurelien Marchand” <aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:C080BD3E63CFD211BF4E0008C7F40F3005AD8688 at tor-exch-001.researchcapital.com
Hi all,
suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL licence right?
and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by Loki are done with SDL right?
So according to the licence we should be able to access the source code for this programs… right?
So, the big question: Can I receive the source code for some of those games? and who and where should I ask?
Aur?lien Marchand,
Programmer/Analyst/Web Developer
Research Capital Corporation
Phone: (416) 860-7790
Reply to: aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com

Legal issues again…> So according to the licence we should be able to
access the source code for this programs… right?

Please read the license.

" 5. A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the
Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or
linked with it, is called a “work that uses the Library”. Such a
work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and
therefore falls outside the scope of this License."
– LGPL, Version 2, June 1991

So if Loki were stupid enough to distribute one of their commercial games
statically linked with SDL, yes, you had the right to access their sources.
But as they are extremely cunning, they only distribute “works that use the
Library”.

Hope this settles this discussion.

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL licence right?
Duh, yeah it’s licensed under the GNU Lesser General Public License (v2 or newer)…

http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by Loki are done with SDL right?
knock knock

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source code for this programs… right?
errrrrnnnnn wrong answer! Loki’s games are dynamically linked with SDL/etc. which means that all they
have to provide is the source code for SDL if you want it.

So, the big question: Can I receive the source code for some of those games? and who and where should I ask?
Right, and i’m Santa Claus… Read the answer to the question above.

-EvilTypeGuyOn 2001.03.09 08:14:27 -0600 Aurelien Marchand wrote:

WIZARD / SYNTHETIC - Crew wrote:

Legal issues again…Hello Aurelien !!!

As i read it there are two ways :

  1. You link SDL static, then you must public the Source with your programm or game.
  2. You link SDL dynamic, then you have to add a little text file README.SDL or something to
    your Programm.

I hope that is correct.

  1. the copyright-holder has all the rights, including to make an
    extra license for someone special.

cheers,
– guido Edel sei der Mensch, hilfreich und gut
31:GCS/E/S/P C++$++++ ULHS L++w- N++@ d(±) s+a- h.r(*@)>+++ y++ 5++X-

Aurelien Marchand wrote:

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL
licence right?

LGPL, not GPL. Extract from web site :

“The Simple DirectMedia Layer library is currently available under the
GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL) version 2 or newer”

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by
Loki are done with SDL right?

From what what I’ve read here, yes.

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source
code for this programs… right?

No, read the LGPL again. You’re allowed to link to a LGPL library
without revealing your source code. Sorry.

So, the big question: Can I receive the source code for some of those
games? and who and where should I ask?

Maybe you could ask their lawyers, who knows ? :wink:

          Franck.> 

Aur?lien Marchand,
Programmer/Analyst/Web Developer
Research Capital Corporation
Phone: (416) 860-7790
Reply to: aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com

SDL is under the LGPL (see http://www.libsdl.org/license.html). So no
source code for you :wink:

sorry,
mick> Aurelien Marchand wrote:

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL
licence right?

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by
Loki are done with SDL right?

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source
code for this programs… right?

So, the big question: Can I receive the source code for some of those
games? and who and where should I ask?

Aur?lien Marchand,
Programmer/Analyst/Web Developer
Research Capital Corporation
Phone: (416) 860-7790
Reply to: aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com


Michael Twomey
These opinions are my own and do not represent Sun unless otherwise
stated.
Sun Microsystems, Dublin, 8199164, x19164
"Fly my little Makefiles! Fly!"

Sweet Lordie! Do people read licenses at all? Or mailing list archives?
Sam, I think its time for sdl-legal at lokigames.com :)On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 09:14:27AM -0500, Aurelien Marchand wrote:

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL licence right?
Programmer/Analyst/Web Developer
Analyst?!


Martin

Bother! said Pooh, as Chewbakka ripped him in half.

It’s perfect!

Thx a lot!

Don’t need more insight…

Aurelien> ----- Original Message -----

From: Pius II. [mailto:PiusII@gmx.de]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 9:35 AM
To: sdl at lokigames.com
Subject: Re: [SDL] Legal issues again…

Legal issues again…> So according to the licence we should be able to
access the source code for this programs… right?

Please read the license.

" 5. A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the
Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or
linked with it, is called a “work that uses the Library”. Such a
work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and
therefore falls outside the scope of this License."
– LGPL, Version 2, June 1991

So if Loki were stupid enough to distribute one of their commercial games
statically linked with SDL, yes, you had the right to access their sources.
But as they are extremely cunning, they only distribute “works that use the
Library”.

Hope this settles this discussion.

SDL is licensed to YOU under the LGPL.

As copyright holder, Sam reserves the right to license SDL to LOKI under whatever license he desires.

Is this matter clearer now?

Aurelien Marchand <aurelien.marchand at researchcapital.com> writes:

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL
licence right? and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc
etc developed by Loki are done with SDL right?

Aside from all of the other issues already discussed about this being
the GNU Library Public License rather than the GNU Public License, if
you’ll notice, the copyright on SDL is:

SDL - Simple DirectMedia Layer
Copyright (C) 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001  Sam Lantinga

Sam Lantinga works for (“Lead Programmer”) Loki Games. The copyright
owner may choose to license his software under less restrictive
licenses to anyone he chooses.

Derrell

Thats not completely correct. What about all the patches that Sam received
from contributers? He doesn’t have copyright over those codes, so He cant
change the license on those pieces of code.

JoseOn Fri, 9 Mar 2001 mlepage at antimeta.com wrote:

SDL is licensed to YOU under the LGPL.

As copyright holder, Sam reserves the right to license SDL to LOKI under whatever license he desires.

Is this matter clearer now?

Thats not completely correct. What about all the patches that Sam received

from contributers? He doesn’t have copyright over those codes, so He cant

change the license on those pieces of code.

Sam doesn’t have to "change the license"
to the patches he receives. As patches they are “derived works” and copyright Sam Lantinga. He owns them. They extend his work.

If you want copyright, you need to create your own work.

to the patches he receives. As patches they are “derived works” and
copyright Sam Lantinga. He owns them. They extend his work.

Not necessarily. The FSF itself, for instance, requires copyright
assignment for contributions to its project (gcc, etc.).

m.On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 06:51:05PM -0500, mlepage at antimeta.com wrote:


“Ha ha.” “Ha ha.” “What are you laughing at?”
“Just the horror of being alive.”
– Tony Millionaire

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL
licence right?

LGPL, right.

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by
Loki are done with SDL right?

Right.

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source
code for this programs… right?

Wrong. They take advantage of the dynamic linking clause in LGPL. Read
the LGPL more carefully.On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Aurelien Marchand wrote:


Rafael R. Sevilla <@Rafael_R_Sevilla> +63 (2) 4342217
UP Diliman Mobile Robotics Laboratory +63 (917) 4458925
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x0E8CE481

Thats not completely correct. What about all the patches that Sam received
from contributers? He doesn’t have copyright over those codes, so He cant
change the license on those pieces of code.

Jose

By submitting code to loki, you agree to their terms and conditions, they
have the
right to distribute under a different license…

The GtkRadiant code is handled much in this way :slight_smile:

-EvilTypeGuy
eviltypeguy at qeradiant.com

Jose Garcia-Sancio wrote:

Thats not completely correct. What about all the patches that Sam received
from contributers? He doesn’t have copyright over those codes, so He cant
change the license on those pieces of code.

Things get very murky here. Patches are partly derived code
and partly original, so there’s not a single owner. Also, the
contributor may not have the right to contribute a patch, for
instance when an employer has rights over the code.

That’s why the FSF is so ana^H^H^H careful about getting copyrights
assigned to it. They have a huge file of paperwork with signatures
of high mucky-mucks of various companies, all saying that they are
never ever going to hassle the FSF about the ownership of pieces of
GNU written by their programmers.

Conversely, there is probably some piece of Linux that is technically
owned by Microsoft, because it was written by an employee or contractor.
If MS ever finds it, you can just imagine what kind of big hoo-ha
they’re going to make out of the situation (“Linux based on stolen
Microsoft code” etc).

Stan

Things get very murky here. Patches are partly derived code
and partly original, so there’s not a single owner. Also, the
contributor may not have the right to contribute a patch, for
instance when an employer has rights over the code.

I accept patches with the understanding that the code goes into SDL
to be redistributed under the LGPL license. This is true of my own
contributions as well as those from Loki employees and everyone else.
This means I can’t really change the license later, but I’ve been
fairly happy with the LGPL, promoting free software and allowing
commercial use.

You always have the option of mailing Loki and asking for a version
of the game which has SDL dynamically linked. Recently we’ve tried
to make that option automatically available to you so you don’t even
have to ask. (look for gamename.dynamic in the game directory)
These dynamically linked executables are not supported, and should
not be renamed to ‘gamename’, or future patches will fail.

As for SDL itself, I personally don’t care too much if the letter of the
license is upheld as long as the spirit of the license is upheld. If you
respect all the work that others have put into it, and you honor the
request of your user/customer to get a version of your product which can
use a custom version of SDL, then I’m happy.

So, that said, please drop this thread. Legal stuff scares people. :slight_smile:

See ya!
-Sam Lantinga, Lead Programmer, Loki Entertainment Software

Stan Shebs wrote:

Jose Garcia-Sancio wrote:

Thats not completely correct. What about all the patches that Sam received
from contributers? He doesn’t have copyright over those codes, so He cant
change the license on those pieces of code.

Things get very murky here. Patches are partly derived code
and partly original, so there’s not a single owner. Also, the
contributor may not have the right to contribute a patch, for
instance when an employer has rights over the code.

If you send Sam a patch, you do implicitly give him the right to
add the patch to HIS sources that HE owns.

The LGPL gives you the right to create your own extended library
(a derivate) where you can add your own copyright stamp. It is
just required that you public-license your derivative work too,
so that a third person can do a derived work, and so on.

If you (the one who did a derivative with a copyright stamp)
never submit your extensions back to Sam, he will not have
the right to include it and license it under non-lgpl terms
to anyone. He may ask you if you would be so kind to allow
him to add the extensions without adding your copyright,
but he couldn’t do more … unless however he adds your
name to the copyright info saying that the library does
contain code from person xxx. In consequence, he would need
to ask all copyright holders if they agree for a special
license on a case by case basis.

In the end, if you have a large block of code (e.g. linux
kernel) that contains a large set of copyright notices
somewhere around, you basically can not achieve anymore
a state to make a special license - it will be bound to
lgpl forever, even for the original author. The original
author could try to strip out all code sections that do
not belong to him, but that’s often not a feasible idea.

So long as all files in the sdl tarball bear his and only
his copyright, he can license the thing to whoever he
wishes under whatever terms he likes. If there are other
copyrights in the tarball, he would need to ask everyone,
or let it be as is: let all Loki games be dynamically
linked to the sdl-lib. After all, since it is lgpl,
there is no problem for Loki (or Sam) anyway - no
claims to see the application code that simply uses
the libsdl seperatly.

cheers,
– guido
P.S. opensource programmers tend to merge a project with its
offspring projects, but that makes for two copyright holders
implicitly. If the FSF likes to be in tightfisted control of
the code, they can be an^H^H^H^H^H insist on an extra
agreement, but actually they are just cautious about the
quirks of US copyright legislation which is really weird
(seen from the european side of the atlantic)

31:GCS/E/S/P C++$++++ ULHS L++w- N++@ d(±) s+a- h.r(*@)>+++ y++ 5++X-

It’s under the LGPL, which allows for it to be used with binary proprietary
releases provided that any changes to the SDL library itself be released back
to the community. (The LGPL was formerly called the “Library General Public
License” because it was intended to allow libraries to be linked with
proprietary code without requiring the linking code be under a "copyleft"
compatible license.)

So SDL can be used as a linking library (statically or dynamically) with
almost any code, provided that SDL itself (and any changes made to it) are
still LGPL.

(and actually, I guess now there is a section of the SDL source code that is
public domain to allow that statement to be made more generally across
platforms)On Fri, 09 Mar 2001, you wrote:

Hi all,

suddently I had a flash today: SDL is under the GPL or the LGPL licence right?

and the games like Heroes III, Civilization III etc etc developed by Loki are done with SDL right?

So according to the licence we should be able to access the source code for this programs… right?


Sam “Criswell” Hart <@Sam_Hart> AIM, Yahoo!:
Homepage: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/ >
PGP Info: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/contact/ >
Advogato: < http://advogato.org/person/criswell/ >