May^WJune^WJuly is SDL release month!

icculus · July 13, 2013, 2:38am

Ok, we’re down to the end here.

Overall, we’re pretty happy with the current state of SDL 2.0, but
before we make an official release, we’re going to get medieval on the
bug tracker.

I’ve tagged 96 (!) bugs as worth considering before shipping. It would
be awesome to fix as many as possible. Some will be fixed, some probably
already are, some we’ll probably punt on, but this is the list of things
that should at least get a cursory examination before we launch.

Here it is:

 http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=target-2.0.0

If you want to help: jump in and submit patches! It’s also really
helpful to write a simple test case so we can reproduce bugs, or at
least verify that some bugs still exist.

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to
the list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

Despite the number of bugs, we don’t plan to spend a long time on
this…we’ll fix as much as we reasonably can, and when we feel we’re
hitting diminishing returns, we’ll decide we’re ready for 2.0.0, so if
you want to get involved, now’s the time!

Let’s do this thing!

–ryan.

Sik_the_hedgehog · July 13, 2013, 9:10am

2013/7/12, Ryan C. Gordon :

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to
the list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

There’s one regarding message boxes that suddenly made it start
crashing on X11 at some point, but before I report it I want to make a
small test program to make sure it isn’t just a stupid issue in my
game (simply trying to pop a message box should bring up the issue).

I tried debugging it and it seems the culprit is attempting to show
the cursor, if anybody is curious. That’s about as far as I got.

slouken · July 13, 2013, 10:20am

Yep, please report a bug with a test program.

Thanks!On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 2:10 AM, Sik the hedgehog < sik.the.hedgehog at gmail.com> wrote:

2013/7/12, Ryan C. Gordon :

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to
the list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

There’s one regarding message boxes that suddenly made it start
crashing on X11 at some point, but before I report it I want to make a
small test program to make sure it isn’t just a stupid issue in my
game (simply trying to pop a message box should bring up the issue).

I tried debugging it and it seems the culprit is attempting to show
the cursor, if anybody is curious. That’s about as far as I got.

SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Rainer_Deyke · July 13, 2013, 11:12am

http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1963On 13.07.2013 04:38, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to
the list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

–
Rainer Deyke (rainerd at eldwood.com)

Sik_the_hedgehog · July 13, 2013, 11:18am

http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1967

Will take care of the message box bug later (as I need to make the
test program, and in fact verify I’m not doing something wrong in the
first place).

Also relative mouse mode doesn’t seem to respect the system’s mouse
speed (unlike absolute mode), but I don’t know if that’s a bug or it’s
expected behavior. Which one is true?

Driedfruit · July 13, 2013, 12:45pm

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add
to the list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1968

Please consider adding this one.On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 22:38:37 -0400 “Ryan C. Gordon” wrote:

–
driedfruit

Sik_the_hedgehog · July 13, 2013, 1:08pm

You’re not going to believe what causes the message box functions to crash:
http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1969

john_skaller · July 13, 2013, 2:48pm

Ok, we’re down to the end here.

Overall, we’re pretty happy with the current state of SDL 2.0, but before we make an official release, we’re going to get medieval on the bug tracker.

I have a suggestion (just an idea for thought experiment!).

Release 2.0.0 now, bugs and all.

Nominate 2.0.1 as a bugfix release. No API changes,
not even design faults. Implementation fixes only.

Nominate 2.0.2 for API changes (correcting design issues).
Not for extensions though.

The cycle can be repeated, and governed by schedule
until something good enough to move up to 2.1.0 is
obtained.

To do this properly some “management” of merges and branches
of the repo would be required, these are well beyond my skill set
so I have no idea how much work is involved.

The effect of this is to say to developers: if you’re an early adopter
there may be a bit of pain. Don’t release your product with 2.0.x,
and be willing to rebuild SDL regularly.

I will also note: the Doxygen docs should be put up. In the long term
the Wiki will be a good source of examples and more explanation
but right now it departs from the code widely. I personally don’t think
Wiki’s are much good for low level API documentation. Automatic
doc generation is the only way to go. Rather, Wiki style docs are
great for examples and higher level concept discussion: stuff
to get you started, stuff to understand structure. (And, screen shots!)

I mention docs because a “release” isn’t just about source code.
So my 2.1 target would include “bug free” docs as well.On 13/07/2013, at 12:38 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

–
john skaller
@john_skaller
http://felix-lang.org

icculus · July 14, 2013, 12:38am

Release 2.0.0 now, bugs and all.

LOL.

–ryan.

john_skaller · July 14, 2013, 12:57am

Release 2.0.0 now, bugs and all.

LOL.

This is a serious suggestion. SDL 2 is a new system. It will take
MONTHS to iron out all the bugs, particularly because it’s
a cross platform library, so it has to cope with a large number
of environments. Only users can find and help fix all the issues.

If you keep delaying the release until the bugs are fixed it will
never be released. The core developers cannot find or fix all
the bugs, unless they’ve got a lab of systems bigger than the
test bed Microsoft runs. And of course, bug fixes for one
platform introduce bugs for another. The fastest way to debug
it is to get people using it, which means doing a release.

I would guess enough of SDL 2 works right now to release it.
Many projects, such as Ubuntu, release by schedule. Bugs and all.On 14/07/2013, at 10:38 AM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

–
john skaller
@john_skaller
http://felix-lang.org

Sik_the_hedgehog · July 14, 2013, 1:06am

2013/7/13, john skaller :

This is a serious suggestion. SDL 2 is a new system. It will take
MONTHS to iron out all the bugs, particularly because it’s
a cross platform library, so it has to cope with a large number
of environments. Only users can find and help fix all the issues.

That’s what release candidates are for. And we aren’t talking about
minor bugs, we’re talking about rather major bugs that are serious
deal breakers. You’ll end up scaring away more people with them.

I would guess enough of SDL 2 works right now to release it.

Anything dealing with X11 tends to be prone to breaking, I’m afraid.
And mobile platforms tend to have their own issues too. Unless you
want to make SDL2 Windows-only (not sure what’s OSX’s state),
releasing it as-is is only going to cause even more grief.

Many projects, such as Ubuntu, release by schedule. Bugs and all.

And they get mocked for that every time, not to mention how horribly
broken the new features turn out. Oh, also Ubuntu tends to make
several systems unbootable every time the version number gets bumped -
you need to wait a few months for the patches to come in before it’s
even remotely safe to use.

john_skaller · July 14, 2013, 1:54am

BTW: I only made a suggestion, so Sik’s arguments here are
proper and sound. All a matter of weighting priorities.

That’s what release candidates are for. And we aren’t talking about
minor bugs, we’re talking about rather major bugs that are serious
deal breakers. You’ll end up scaring away more people with them.

i got scared away from SDL 1.x. Not because of any bug.
Because the interface was so lame it didn’t support multiple windows.
Version 2 does. So I’m using it anyhow, bugs and all, because
SDL 1.x is already a deal breaker. Whereas 2.0 is working for me
at the moment.

I would guess enough of SDL 2 works right now to release it.

Anything dealing with X11 tends to be prone to breaking, I’m afraid.

Why am I not surprised

And mobile platforms tend to have their own issues too. Unless you
want to make SDL2 Windows-only (not sure what’s OSX’s state),
releasing it as-is is only going to cause even more grief.

i’m using OSX, and the limited functionality I am using is working reasonably well.
These days its a fairly stable well supported relatively bug free platform,
probably because Apple + open source devs put so much work into
making it that way, i.e. the funding and commercial component really
helped (though it took some time).

Many projects, such as Ubuntu, release by schedule. Bugs and all.

And they get mocked for that every time, not to mention how horribly
broken the new features turn out. Oh, also Ubuntu tends to make
several systems unbootable every time the version number gets bumped -
you need to wait a few months for the patches to come in before it’s
even remotely safe to use.

Compared to Debian which has lost almost all its direct support
to Ubuntu because they took over 18 months to make
a release. [If you want a more stable Ubuntu you use an LTS release]On 14/07/2013, at 11:06 AM, Sik the hedgehog wrote:

–
john skaller
@john_skaller
http://felix-lang.org

Jared_Maddox · July 14, 2013, 2:38am

Message-ID:
<659DFE62-CD93-49A6-8C54-9381210D7594 at users.sourceforge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Nominate 2.0.2 for API changes (correcting design issues).
Not for extensions though.

And how, pray tell, do you recommend obtaining this goal? SDL needs to
maintain ABI compatibility, so the only way that immediately comes to
mind to improve the API is by extending it. Removing or renaming
functions, flags, or other such things is currently off the table, and
will remain so for some time to come. At the most, after several minor
versions have been released (let’s say when we reach SDL 2.5) we might
be able to get Sam & Ryan to agree that some functions and/or flags
marked as deprecated in SDL 2.1 can be removed. Behaviors and
interfaces must be preserved. New behaviors and interfaces can be
added, but 2.1 is far too early for existing ones to be removed, even
if we hate them.

The effect of this is to say to developers: if you’re an early adopter
there may be a bit of pain. Don’t release your product with 2.0.x,
and be willing to rebuild SDL regularly.

We’ve already gone past that stage. I don’t know when you started
following the mailinglist, but by the best of my memory SDL 2 was
kicked out of the “ABI/API instability phase” in May (maybe April).
Early adopters were already around even then, and I think there were a
few iPhone games using SDL 2 that were released in 2012. SDL 2 has
already been in use for a while, the “opening” has already been done,
the current work is for the “grand opening”.

I will also note: the Doxygen docs should be put up. In the long term
the Wiki will be a good source of examples and more explanation
but right now it departs from the code widely. I personally don’t think
Wiki’s are much good for low level API documentation. Automatic
doc generation is the only way to go. Rather, Wiki style docs are
great for examples and higher level concept discussion: stuff
to get you started, stuff to understand structure. (And, screen shots!)

Having the Doxygen docs online would be nice.> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 00:48:54 +1000

From: john skaller
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] May^WJune^WJuly is SDL release month!
On 13/07/2013, at 12:38 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

Jonathan_Greig · July 14, 2013, 2:55am

…and early adopters know it as 1.3, not 2.0

Ryan’s response was the short version; Sik’s was the long version.

Swyped from my droid.On Jul 13, 2013 9:38 PM, “Jared Maddox” wrote:

Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 00:48:54 +1000
From: john skaller
To: SDL Development List
Subject: Re: [SDL] May^WJune^WJuly is SDL release month!
Message-ID:
<659DFE62-CD93-49A6-8C54-9381210D7594 at users.sourceforge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 13/07/2013, at 12:38 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

Nominate 2.0.2 for API changes (correcting design issues).
Not for extensions though.

And how, pray tell, do you recommend obtaining this goal? SDL needs to
maintain ABI compatibility, so the only way that immediately comes to
mind to improve the API is by extending it. Removing or renaming
functions, flags, or other such things is currently off the table, and
will remain so for some time to come. At the most, after several minor
versions have been released (let’s say when we reach SDL 2.5) we might
be able to get Sam & Ryan to agree that some functions and/or flags
marked as deprecated in SDL 2.1 can be removed. Behaviors and
interfaces must be preserved. New behaviors and interfaces can be
added, but 2.1 is far too early for existing ones to be removed, even
if we hate them.

The effect of this is to say to developers: if you’re an early adopter
there may be a bit of pa…
We’ve already gone past that stage. I don’t know when you started
following the mailinglist, but by the best of my memory SDL 2 was
kicked out of the “ABI/API instability phase” in May (maybe April).
Early adopters were already around even then, and I think there were a
few iPhone games using SDL 2 that were released in 2012. SDL 2 has
already been in use for a while, the “opening” has already been done,
the current work is for the “grand opening”.

I will also note: the Doxygen docs should be put up. In the long term
the Wiki will be a good s…
Having the Doxygen docs online would be nice.

SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.l…

icculus · July 14, 2013, 4:01am

This is a serious suggestion. SDL 2 is a new system. It will take
MONTHS to iron out all the bugs, particularly because it’s
a cross platform library, so it has to cope with a large number
of environments. Only users can find and help fix all the issues.

Sure, and that’s why a prerelease version is shipping in millions of
copies of games right now, across several platforms.

If you keep delaying the release until the bugs are fixed it will
never be released.

That’s true, but we’re not talking about perfection, we’re talking about
a brief bugfixing sprint.

–ryan.

john_skaller · July 14, 2013, 6:24am

That’s true, but we’re not talking about perfection, we’re talking about a brief bugfixing sprint.

Well technically, there are no bugs. Because a bug is a departure from
the specification … and there’s no specification. (The notes in the header
files are the best guide but hardly a spec, one has to be a fair bit
of guessing or asking on the mailing list).On 14/07/2013, at 2:01 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

–
john skaller
@john_skaller
http://felix-lang.org

Vittorio_Giovara · July 14, 2013, 11:26am

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to the
list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

I think some users reported problems when using SDL on iOS7, obtaining only
a black window or double events.
Can anyone confirm the bug and possibly open a report about it?

VittorioOn Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 4:38 AM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

icculus · July 19, 2013, 3:06pm

I think my thinking was it would be too complex to fix before 2.0.0,
even though it is a legitimate bug.

I’ll apply a patch if someone dedicates time to fixing it, though.

–ryan.On 7/18/13 6:52 AM, Jonas Thiem wrote:

It was probably left out intentionally, but just in case it was
missed: http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1550 I feel this
one would be good to resolve aswell so all renderers behave similar.
However I do understand it might not be important enough to end up on
this list.

slouken · July 21, 2013, 7:30pm

We’re making great progress, we’re down 30 bugs. At this rate we’ll be
done in 3 weeks. Feel free to jump in!
http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=target-2.0.0%2C%20&query_format=advanced&keywords_type=allwords&list_id=1560&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=WAITING&bug_status=RESPONDED&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&version=2.0.0&version=don’t%20know&version=HG%202.0&version=1.3.0&product=SDLOn Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Ryan C. Gordon wrote:

Ok, we’re down to the end here.

Overall, we’re pretty happy with the current state of SDL 2.0, but before
we make an official release, we’re going to get medieval on the bug tracker.

I’ve tagged 96 (!) bugs as worth considering before shipping. It would be
awesome to fix as many as possible. Some will be fixed, some probably
already are, some we’ll probably punt on, but this is the list of things
that should at least get a cursory examination before we launch.

Here it is:
http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/**buglist.cgi?keywords=target-2.**0.0<http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=target-2.0.0>
If you want to help: jump in and submit patches! It’s also really helpful
to write a simple test case so we can reproduce bugs, or at least verify
that some bugs still exist.

If you have a bug that isn’t on that list: speak up now. We can add to the
list, but only if we know your bug should be on it.

Despite the number of bugs, we don’t plan to spend a long time on
this…we’ll fix as much as we reasonably can, and when we feel we’re
hitting diminishing returns, we’ll decide we’re ready for 2.0.0, so if you
want to get involved, now’s the time!

Let’s do this thing!

–ryan.

_____________**
SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/**listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org