SDL LGPL violations

I agree it’s a bit hard to be sure, but here’s what I believe says
it’s OK to make it available off a web site.

  1. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also combine or link
    a “work that uses the Library” with the Library to produce a work
    containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work under
    terms of your choice, provided that the terms permit modification of
    the work for the customer’s own use and reverse engineering for
    debugging such modifications.

[Basically, that sentence gives you the intent of the contract.]

You must give prominent notice with each copy of the work that the
Library is used in it and that the Library and its use are covered by
this License. You must supply a copy of this License. If the work
during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the
copyright notice for the Library among them, as well as a reference
directing the user to the copy of this License. Also, you must do one
of these things:

c) Accompany the work with a written offer, valid for at least three
years, to give the same user the materials specified in Subsection 6a,
above, for a charge no more than the cost of performing this
distribution.~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’m not a lawyer, but by my reading, if you say to someone “send me
mail and I’ll send you the source”, you’ve got it covered.

Can we please stop being QUITE so vehement about it?

Kent

Friday, June 28, 2002, 1:58:51 PM, you wrote:

MM> On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:37:55AM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

They provide a link to the SDL pages, and yes, he’s
being a jackass.

MM> Where in the license does it say that providing a link to the SDL pages is
MM> adequate for anything other than binaries also distributed from those pages?
MM> I’d love to be wrong here, but I just don’t see it.


Kent Quirk, CTO, CogniToy
@Kent_Quirk
http://www.cognitoy.com

Hi Kent,
I don’t feel too vehement about it, I’d just
rather not see some guy who seems to be responsible in
his use of SDL to get pestered with a “you are in
violation of the LGPL” message when I don’t think the
situation even remotely warrants it. I don’t really
think it’s in anyone’s best interest to have a million
copies of the source code floating around on every
project page that uses SDL, most of which won’t be up
to date.
Besides, you know how these license threads heat
up all the time :slight_smile:

Andrew.

— Kent Quirk <kent_quirk at cognitoy.com> wrote:> I’m not a lawyer, but by my reading, if you say to

someone “send me
mail and I’ll send you the source”, you’ve got it
covered.

Can we please stop being QUITE so vehement about it?

Kent

Friday, June 28, 2002, 1:58:51 PM, you wrote:

MM> On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:37:55AM -0700, Andrew
Ford wrote:

They provide a link to the SDL pages, and yes,
he’s

being a jackass.

MM> Where in the license does it say that providing
a link to the SDL pages is
MM> adequate for anything other than binaries also
distributed from those pages?
MM> I’d love to be wrong here, but I just don’t see
it.


Kent Quirk, CTO, CogniToy
kent_quirk at cognitoy.com
http://www.cognitoy.com


Do You Yahoo!?
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No, not at all. If this were the case, linking to any web site would be
including that web site in mine, and potentially a copyright violation.

Furthermore, this is very likely counter to the intent of the license –
what if the original site goes down?On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries from
the download page (or project page) could in fact be
said to make the source code available from the same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you say?


Matthew Miller @Matthew_Miller http://www.mattdm.org/
Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/

Making it available from your page has nothing to
do with including it in your page, so no.
If the original site goes down, then it would
still be incumbent upon you to make available the
source, wouldn’t it? The intent of the license seems
to be to make sure that the source is available. Of
course, RMS wrote it, so the intent of the license
might be to demand that GNU/ be placed in front of
every piece of software, who knows…

Andrew.

— Matthew Miller wrote:> On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking
the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries
from
the download page (or project page) could in fact
be
said to make the source code available from the
same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you
say?

No, not at all. If this were the case, linking to
any web site would be
including that web site in mine, and potentially a
copyright violation.

Furthermore, this is very likely counter to the
intent of the license –
what if the original site goes down?


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

this would imply we have to make libc source available - i dont think so,
this would quickly get out of hand. a simple link must surely be enough (and
I’m certain thats what the gnu projects do).
if you want to discuss this further can u do it elsewhere, this is way
off-topic.> ----- Original Message -----

From: mattdm@mattdm.org (Matthew Miller)
To:
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [SDL] SDL LGPL violations

On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries from
the download page (or project page) could in fact be
said to make the source code available from the same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you say?

No, not at all. If this were the case, linking to any web site would be
including that web site in mine, and potentially a copyright violation.

Furthermore, this is very likely counter to the intent of the license –
what if the original site goes down?


Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org http://www.mattdm.org/
Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/


SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries from
the download page (or project page) could in fact be
said to make the source code available from the same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you say?

I’d be surprised if that would be adequate, but it could be.

I think part of the problem here is that the terms of
the licence are not quite adequate to properly define
electronic distribution over the internet. Perhaps it
might be stretching it, I don’t know…

The important point is that people have to have access to enough of the
rest of the application to be able to build a new version of the
application using a different version of the library. It is perfectly OK
to statically link against LGPL libs and distribute the binary
application so long as you promise to make the object files needed to
build the application using different binaries of the library available
to the end user. You can even charge for giving the objects files to them.

Please folks, read section 6.0 sections a) and c) of the LGPL before
commenting on this stuff.

The LGPL is at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html, read it,
understand it, respct it, use it.

I think it only applies if you distribute binaries of the library. Surely you
don’t distribute libc with your program?

cu,
NicolaiAm Freitag, 28. Juni 2002 22:33 schrieb Jude:

this would imply we have to make libc source available - i dont think so,
this would quickly get out of hand. a simple link must surely be enough
(and I’m certain thats what the gnu projects do).
if you want to discuss this further can u do it elsewhere, this is way
off-topic.

Jude wrote:

this would imply we have to make libc source available - i dont think so,

The LGPL has a specific exemption for code like the kernel and libc.
READ THE DOCUMENT BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON IT.> this would quickly get out of hand. a simple link must surely be enough (and

I’m certain thats what the gnu projects do).
if you want to discuss this further can u do it elsewhere, this is way
off-topic.

----- Original Message -----
From: “Matthew Miller”
To:
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [SDL] SDL LGPL violations

On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries from
the download page (or project page) could in fact be
said to make the source code available from the same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you say?

No, not at all. If this were the case, linking to any web site would be
including that web site in mine, and potentially a copyright violation.

Furthermore, this is very likely counter to the intent of the license –
what if the original site goes down?


Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org http://www.mattdm.org/
Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/


SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl


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SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl


±-----------------------------------------+

  • Bob Pendleton, an experienced C/C++/Java +
  • UNIX/Linux programmer, researcher, and +
  • system architect, is seeking full time, +
  • consulting, or contract employment. +
  • Resume: http://www.jump.net/~bobp +
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Yes, actually, this may be the section I was misreading; I see that the
"written offer to copy" bit does apply to programs linked against LGPL’d
libraries. This is good, because as Andrew points out, not having this would
be “craptacular”. Now, whether providing a link covers this clause or not is
possibly open to debate, but definitely makes me feel better, as you don’t
actually have to do something unless someone asks (provided you just stick
notification in your source – the standard “you can get SDL from the web
site” probably isn’t quite enough).On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 03:25:55PM -0400, Kent Quirk wrote:

  1. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also combine or link
    a “work that uses the Library” with the Library to produce a work
    containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work under


Matthew Miller @Matthew_Miller http://www.mattdm.org/
Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/

Bob Pendleton:

Jude wrote:

this would imply we have to make libc source available - i dont think
so,

The LGPL has a specific exemption for code like the kernel and libc.
READ THE DOCUMENT BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON IT.

ok, apologies, bad example - i’ve got better things to do with my time than
read mealy-mouthed licenses. the point i was trying to make is that you
shouldnt need to re-distribute sources when a link will suffice.

If its a GPL program you can include sdl.dll.On 28-Jun-2002, David Olofson wrote:

On Fri, 28/06/2002 15:00:31 , Patrick McFarland wrote:

Heres more of my two cents…
And isnt that saying that the compiled code and the source code should both
be avalible side by side? That has nothing to do with third party required
libraries, especially ones that arnt/do not have to be statically linked.

Right - but I want to include SDL binaries with my binary distros to avoid every other Win32 user either giving up or sending me “Why won’t it start up?” mail.

//David

.---------------------------------------
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| Programmer

david.olofson at reologica.se
Address:
REOLOGICA Instruments AB
Scheelev?gen 30
223 63 LUND
Sweden
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Phone: 046-12 77 60
Fax: 046-12 50 57
Mobil:
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SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl


Patrick “Diablo-D3” McFarland || unknown at panax.com
"Computer games don’t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we’d
all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to
repetitive electronic music." --Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Dude.

This is lame.

Read the LGPL carefully before you start some half breed nonsense in
here.

AlexAm Fre, 2002-06-28 um 00.38 schrieb Mikko Rauhala:

Greetings

It has come to my attention that at least one instance of LGPL violation
has occured with respect to SDL. I imagine that this kind of violations
may also be more common, but I haven’t bothered to spesifically seek
more of them out.

The issue is that some projects based on SDL choose to create binary
distributions that include prebuilt SDL libraries, rather than just
distributing their own binaries and instructing the people downloading
them to get the SDL libraries from the SDL homepages, for example. Now
this in itself of course isn’t a license violation, if they’d distribute
also the appropriate source code for the SDL library. Not all do.

I would, in the interest of keeping (L)GPL licensing matters clear, urge
the SDL developers to contact people found doing this sort of things and
ask them to comply with SDL’s LGPL license. As the source distribution
clause is clearly spelled out on the SDL homepage as well, I assume you
might agree. (The alternative would be to clarify this kind of use as
acceptable as an exception to the LGPL, but that’d make things
complicated and lessen the availability of the source code.)

Anyway, the particular offending page that propmpted this mail is at
URL:http://teddy.sourceforge.net/. The Windows binary package contains
SDL DLL’s, but no sources are available from the pages.

Thank you for your attention.


Mikko Rauhala - mjr at iki.fi - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/
- WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/

I believe that even with GPL, as long as you notify the user and provide
them the means the get the source, you don’t have to include the source
itself.

Hi! Just to be sure since I don’t understand much of licencing issues:
If I don’t include any SDL binaries or source at all, but just use the
source I ship uses them during compliling and linking via the makefile,
can there ever be a GPl/LPGL or whatever licencing violation that way?
Could I even do that in a commercial product? Thanks, Johannes.

Okay, after reading most of this thread, and deciding this topic needs to
end, I’ve done some reading of the LGPL 2.1:

Section 4 concerns distribution of the library itself, paragraph two,
which has been quoted elsewhere, is relevant:

If distribution of object code is made by offering access to copy

from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the
source code from the same place satisfies the requirement to
distribute the source code, even though third parties are not
compelled to copy the source along with the object code.

This seems to indicate that distributing a binary of the library does
require that the source be available from the same location as the
binaries. Section 6 concerns distribution of binaries and things which
use the library. It offers several alternatives, here are the relevant
ones:

  a) Accompany the work with the complete corresponding
  machine-readable source code for the Library including whatever
  changes were used in the work (which must be distributed under
  Sections 1 and 2 above); and, if the work is an executable linked
  with the Library, with the complete machine-readable "work that
  uses the Library", as object code and/or source code, so that the
  user can modify the Library and then relink to produce a modified
  executable containing the modified Library.  (It is understood
  that the user who changes the contents of definitions files in the
  Library will not necessarily be able to recompile the application
  to use the modified definitions.)

  b) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the
  Library.  A suitable mechanism is one that (1) uses at run time a
  copy of the library already present on the user's computer system,
  rather than copying library functions into the executable, and (2)
  will operate properly with a modified version of the library, if
  the user installs one, as long as the modified version is
  interface-compatible with the version that the work was made with.

  c) Accompany the work with a written offer, valid for at least
  three years, to give the same user the materials specified in
  Subsection 6a, above, for a charge no more than the cost of
  performing this distribution.

  d) If distribution of the work is made by offering access to copy
  from a designated place, offer equivalent access to copy the above
  specified materials from the same place.

Section 6(a) does not apply to the traditional methods for distributing
SDL, unless you consider the readme file such an offer to satisfy 6©.
6(b) generally assumes the library is distributed seperately (and
therefore other distribution terms apply from section 4.) 6(d) is the
only one of these options which applies to distribution of the shared lib
together with the binary, with source code available seperately, and it is
clear as to what it requires.

Since no other section grants additional permissions, the source code must
be available on the same place as the binary. The exact definition of
place is not clear, but I would argue same web or ftp is sufficient to
satisfy this requirement. I’ll reiterate my suggestion that this is
probably a good idea for technical reasons, though I was clearly wrong
before when I said there was no legal requirement to do so.

(Here’s hoping this thread stops growing fast…)–
Joseph Carter Hey, that’s MY freak show!

but one sort per tab and none per list is arguably better than
O(n + n2) per tab and O(n2) per list.
OMG, someone shoot me.
?
I can’t believe I just used the big goose-egg to explain why my
way is probably best in the long run.

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Hi! Just to be sure since I don’t understand much of licencing issues:
If I don’t include any SDL binaries or source at all, but just use the
source I ship uses them during compliling and linking via the makefile,
can there ever be a GPl/LPGL or whatever licencing violation that way?

Not in the simplistic case you suggest. The LGPL does suggest a case in
which another license may prohibit you from doing what you must under the
LGPL. I’ve never seen such a license which did this and yet allowed you
to publish your source code in this manner though.

Could I even do that in a commercial product? Thanks, Johannes.

Yes.On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:23:18AM +0200, Johannes Prix wrote:


Joseph Carter Sooner or later, BOOM!

That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard and I will not condone it.
– DyerMaker, 17 March 2000 MegaPhone radio show

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Huh?

Looking at the LGPL distributed with SDL, I read:

For example, if you distribute copies of the library, whether gratis
or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that we gave
you.  You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source
code.                                            ^^^^^^^^^^

Now, it does say, further down:

If distribution of object code is made by offering access to copy
from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the
source code from the same place satisfies the requirement to
distribute the source code, even though third parties are not
compelled to copy the source along with the object code.

What constitutes the “same place?” Is “the Internet” a place? SDL’s source
is on the Internet, as are my programs. A link to SDL’s website (where
the source is available) is on the same block of pages as the link to my
binary download.

Is this sufficient, or does it mean I need to stick the SDL source tarballs
on my FTP server as well?

So from what I understand, (1) I don’t need to include SDL’s source
inside the same download (or even media, e.g. CDROM) as the compiled
SDL.dll’s

(2) I DO need to make SDL’s source available to people. LGPL’s wording
doesn’t make it clear to me, however, whether simply its existence on
www.libsdl.org (and/or my link/reference to that URL) is sufficient.

-bill!On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 01:51:08PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 10:44:22AM -0700, Teunis Peters wrote:

Inclusion of source with a package marked GNU Copyleft (GPL) or Library
GNU Copyleft (LGPL) is not required. What is required is to make the
source readily available for up to three years.

Anyone who distributes the binary versions needs to make the source
available from the same place that the binaries are.

Methinks FSF needs to update LGPL (© 1991) for that newfangled
Interweb Netsplorer stuff that Al Gore created.

:wink:

-bill!On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries from
the download page (or project page) could in fact be
said to make the source code available from the same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you say?

Don’t mock Al, he did create the internet, or at least
he took the initiative in creating the initiative that
created the internet or something :slight_smile:

Andrew.

— nbs wrote:> On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:18:44PM -0700, Andrew Ford wrote:

Hold on, hold on. I think maybe we’re overlooking
the
fact that providing a link to the SDL libraries
from
the download page (or project page) could in fact
be
said to make the source code available from the
same
place that distributes the binaries, wouldn’t you
say?

Methinks FSF needs to update LGPL (© 1991) for
that newfangled
Interweb Netsplorer stuff that Al Gore created.

:wink:

-bill!


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Do You Yahoo!?
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What constitutes the “same place?” Is “the Internet” a place? SDL’s source
is on the Internet, as are my programs. A link to SDL’s website (where
the source is available) is on the same block of pages as the link to my
binary download.

Is this sufficient, or does it mean I need to stick the SDL source tarballs
on my FTP server as well?

According to the Free Software Foundation, if people can get it from your
website, great. If you have a URL of where they can get it, cool.

If someone wants the source and can’t get it, you have to send it to them
by postal service
.

I’m not making this up.

http://www.gnu.org/cgi-bin/license-quiz.cgi

Now stop talking about this on the SDL list. If you don’t like it,
make a photocopy of your butt and send it to Stallman, but please take it
off this list. :slight_smile:

–ryan.