Sv: Fast Scrolling?

Anders_Emil_Hansen · September 27, 2001, 3:06am

map. I have decided to stick to a SW surface for now as I prefer to be
able to use e-mail while I am testing and I hate the glitch when
changing video modes.

That’s one of the reasons why HW windowed surfaces could be cool

renaud

Surely one of the goals with making SDL would be to provide the fastest possible way of drawing graphics on any platform included in the list - utilising any known technology on any platform. So why is this not supported?? We obviously have ressources on the list that are able to code, help or just provide info to obtain this simple goal.

Regards
Anders of Denmark

Sam_Hart · September 27, 2001, 9:13am

Because this is a hardware issue. Not all hardware (or drivers, or platforms,
or whatnot) support this. AFAIK, very few of them do support it right now.

I mean, we all want to have very fast resources, but we will always be
limitted by our hardware (or, whatever the “norm” is for hardware and
support).

This is why it’s so difficult to write games/multimedia apps for computers,
you can never be guaranteed what sort of hardware/support the end-user will
wind up having (whereas with video game consoles on the other hand, your
hardware is set… it’s a given)On Thursday 27 September 2001 3:07, Anders Emil Hansen wrote:

map. I have decided to stick to a SW surface for now as I prefer to be
able to use e-mail while I am testing and I hate the glitch when
changing video modes.

That’s one of the reasons why HW windowed surfaces could be cool

renaud

Surely one of the goals with making SDL would be to provide the fastest
possible way of drawing graphics on any platform included in the list -
utilising any known technology on any platform. So why is this not
supported?? We obviously have ressources on the list that are able to code,
help or just provide info to obtain this simple goal.

–
Sam “Criswell” Hart <@Sam_Hart> AIM, Yahoo!:
Homepage: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/ >
PGP Info: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/contact/ >
Tux4Kids: < http://www.geekcomix.com/tux4kids/ >

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 9:44am

Yeah. I can help with X and to some extent, Win32 - and I probably will
(for once!) unless something forces me to put the whole Kobo Deluxe deal
on hold.

My biggest itch right now is raw blitting performance under Linux and
Win32 - and it’s a big one! :-/ No sysRAM->VRAM DMA under X (not much we
can do about that in SDL, AFAIK…) and the same problem with Win32!? I
thought it should work there, and it looks like it should as far as I can
tell from the DX code. Unless this is expected behavior, I’m going to
investigate more carefully what actually happens.

BTW, there’s another target that’s very interesting to me as well -
stretched blitting through OpenGL. That is, the SDL “screen” surface
wraps an OpenGL texture, and SDL_Flip() makes sure the actual texture is
up to date, and then renders it, stretched to full screen size. (That is,
if there’s no 320x240 mode, the “screen” would transparently be stretched
to 640x480.)

I’ve seen at least one emulator use that method with very good results on
Win32, and I can’t see why it couldn’t be implemented as a normal SDL
target.

The point is that 99% of the games that could really use such an output
method don’t have it, as the authors either don’t care (they expect
people to hack modelines and use a cheap 15" monitor…), or don’t have
3D hardware. If it’s in SDL, it’s done, once and for all, on all
platforms with OpenGL support.

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 12:07, Anders Emil Hansen wrote:

map. I have decided to stick to a SW surface for now as I prefer
to be able to use e-mail while I am testing and I hate the glitch
when changing video modes.

That’s one of the reasons why HW windowed surfaces could be cool

renaud

Surely one of the goals with making SDL would be to provide the fastest
possible way of drawing graphics on any platform included in the list -
utilising any known technology on any platform. So why is this not
supported?? We obviously have ressources on the list that are able to
code, help or just provide info to obtain this simple goal.

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 10:02am

map. I have decided to stick to a SW surface for now as I prefer
to be able to use e-mail while I am testing and I hate the glitch
when changing video modes.

That’s one of the reasons why HW windowed surfaces could be cool

renaud

Surely one of the goals with making SDL would be to provide the
fastest possible way of drawing graphics on any platform included in
the list - utilising any known technology on any platform. So why is
this not supported?? We obviously have ressources on the list that
are able to code, help or just provide info to obtain this simple
goal.

Because this is a hardware issue. Not all hardware (or drivers, or
platforms, or whatnot) support this. AFAIK, very few of them do support
it right now.

There are issues with direct access and DMA blitting directly into
windows, but what’s the problem with system RAM -> VRAM DMA blits on
Win32?

I don’t feel good when my P-III 933 with SDL gets it’s ass kicked so bad
it can’t sit in a month - by my old P-200 using DirectX! (This is about
Win32 - I know the issues with X…)

I mean, we all want to have very fast resources, but we will always be
limitted by our hardware (or, whatever the “norm” is for hardware and
support).

Yes, but we should at least try and make full use of that hardware - or
at least of available driver features. (SDL is not a driver - X has to be
fixed. Soon.)

This is why it’s so difficult to write games/multimedia apps for
computers, you can never be guaranteed what sort of hardware/support
the end-user will wind up having (whereas with video game consoles on
the other hand, your hardware is set… it’s a given)

Yeah. I’m considering building custom arcade machines instead of
programming for PCs…

Anyway, the problem here is that either way you go, you hit the wall:

Solution			ProblemOn Thursday 27 September 2001 18:11, Samuel Hart wrote:

On Thursday 27 September 2001 3:07, Anders Emil Hansen wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Go for low resolution. No <640x480 modelines in X.

Go for scaling to 640x480+.	Dog slow on all targets.

Use OpenGL.			Many users w/o 3D cards.
				Tricky getting 3D to work on X.

This is not good enough, but I believe it can be improved quite a bit.
(Although we’ll have to wait for other projects to mature in some cases,
where drivers just don’t provide the required features.)

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -’

Renaud_Cazoulat · September 27, 2001, 10:33am

BTW, there’s another target that’s very interesting to me as well -
stretched blitting through OpenGL. That is, the SDL “screen” surface
wraps an OpenGL texture, and SDL_Flip() makes sure the actual texture is
up to date, and then renders it, stretched to full screen size. (That is,
if there’s no 320x240 mode, the “screen” would transparently be stretched
to 640x480.)

You can do that also with directx : you copy your texture on a 320x240
offscreen HW surface
then you blit it (with stetching) to a 640x480 “onscreen” surface. If you
have a video board that have
HW streched blit (like tnt2), it costs basically nothing (for the main
processor)

renaud

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 11:06am

Of course - although the DirectX implementation would be Win32 only,
whereas an OpenGL version would run on any SDL target with OpenGL support.

But of course, if you believe DirectX does this so much better on Win32,
you’re welcome to hack the DirectX implementation.

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 19:36, Renaud Cazoulat wrote:

BTW, there’s another target that’s very interesting to me as well -
stretched blitting through OpenGL. That is, the SDL “screen” surface
wraps an OpenGL texture, and SDL_Flip() makes sure the actual texture
is up to date, and then renders it, stretched to full screen size.
(That is, if there’s no 320x240 mode, the “screen” would
transparently be stretched to 640x480.)

You can do that also with directx : you copy your texture on a 320x240
offscreen HW surface
then you blit it (with stetching) to a 640x480 “onscreen” surface. If
you have a video board that have
HW streched blit (like tnt2), it costs basically nothing (for the main
processor)

Anders_Emil_Hansen · September 27, 2001, 11:13am

This is why it’s so difficult to write games/multimedia apps for computers,
you can never be guaranteed what sort of hardware/support the end-user will
wind up having (whereas with video game consoles on the other hand, your
hardware is set… it’s a given)

But this is exactly why we have SDL, to stop us from having to worry about hardware and OS. The point here is, that a huge gaming platform like Windows with hardware accelerated graphics should not be neglected - I think it is very risky for SDLs future not to utilize at the very least the most common hardware acceleration on its biggest platforms.

I know it may sound as asking a lot, but from my point of view it is really just a matter of doing the proper research and layering.

Best regards
Anders of Denmark

Sam_Hart · September 27, 2001, 11:26am

Anyway, the problem here is that either way you go, you hit the wall:

Yeah, I know

Solution Problem

Go for low resolution. No <640x480 modelines in X.

Actually, I just wanted to say that you can set modelines to whatever
resolution you want in X. I set up my system so it supports just about
everything from 320x200 all the way up to my cards max (1152x864).

Using X 4.x, it has actually gotten really easy to add new resolutions. ANd
some of the new tools in development should make these sort of setups very
simply soon.On Thursday 27 September 2001 10:04, David Olofson wrote:

–
Sam “Criswell” Hart <@Sam_Hart> AIM, Yahoo!:
Homepage: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/ >
PGP Info: < http://www.geekcomix.com/snh/contact/ >
Tux4Kids: < http://www.geekcomix.com/tux4kids/ >

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 12:19pm

Anyway, the problem here is that either way you go, you hit the wall:

Yeah, I know
Solution			Problem
-------------------------------------------------------------
Go for low resolution.		No <640x480 modelines in X.
Actually, I just wanted to say that you can set modelines to whatever
resolution you want in X. I set up my system so it supports just about
everything from 320x200 all the way up to my cards max (1152x864).

Same here; my home system blows up anything from 256x192 through to
800x600 in doublescan mode, and anything up to 1920x1536 in normal mode.

However, this doesn’t make Kobo Deluxe look any better on this machine
(at work), where I haven’t bothered to edit the config file yet!

Using X 4.x, it has actually gotten really easy to add new resolutions.
ANd some of the new tools in development should make these sort of
setups very simply soon.

“Soon”… Windoze has been supporting 320x200 and up out of the box for
ages. Why are the lowres modelines disabled or removed in the config
files of all recent Linux distros? It’s not like anyone will fry a
monitor trying to run 320x240 doublescan - it’s the exact same
frequencies as 640x480!

Is someone deliberately trying to screw Linux as a 2D action gaming
platform, or what…?

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 20:22, Samuel Hart wrote:

On Thursday 27 September 2001 10:04, David Olofson wrote:

Robin_Forster · September 27, 2001, 12:48pm

Where can I pick up Kobo Deluxe? I checked the games section on the SDL
site but could not see it.

Robin.–
Robin Forster, Systems Engineer,
http://www.rsforster.ottawa.on.ca/

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 1:19pm

It’s the real name of “SKobo”, and will be used for v0.3.

It should have been released already, but too many other things went
wrong this week, so I haven’t had too much time to spend on it.

Anyway, there are some snapshots on the server:

http://olofson.net/download/

(the kobo- files)

Sorry about the bzip2 archives - they aren’t really meant for public
release, and probably won’t build out of the box on anything but Linux
and possibly Mac OS X.

I’ll upload the lastest version right now. (Not v0.3, though - I want to
make sure it builds on Linux, Win32, FreeBSD, Mac OS X and Solaris, and
perhaps fix some minor user interface details…)

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

PS: Hey, Max, I actually did add bilinear interpolation for v0.3, as
well as an “oversampled” variant; not just “nearest”! OTOH,
my plan was that v0.3 as well as v0.4 should have been released
by now… heh

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 18:49, Robin Forster wrote:

Where can I pick up Kobo Deluxe? I checked the games section on the
SDL site but could not see it.

Robin_Forster · September 27, 2001, 1:38pm

I downloaded it and then found out I needed SDL_image. I got it and
installed it using the RPM. Now configure still complains that
SDL_image is not installed! What am I missing here is there a line
needing to be added to ld.so.conf?

Robin.

David Olofson wrote:>

On Thursday 27 September 2001 18:49, Robin Forster wrote:

Where can I pick up Kobo Deluxe? I checked the games section on the
SDL site but could not see it.

It’s the real name of “SKobo”, and will be used for v0.3.

It should have been released already, but too many other things went
wrong this week, so I haven’t had too much time to spend on it.

Anyway, there are some snapshots on the server:
    http://olofson.net/download/
(the kobo- files)

Sorry about the bzip2 archives - they aren’t really meant for public
release, and probably won’t build out of the box on anything but Linux
and possibly Mac OS X.

I’ll upload the lastest version right now. (Not v0.3, though - I want to
make sure it builds on Linux, Win32, FreeBSD, Mac OS X and Solaris, and
perhaps fix some minor user interface details…)

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

PS: Hey, Max, I actually did add bilinear interpolation for v0.3, as
well as an “oversampled” variant; not just “nearest”! OTOH,
my plan was that v0.3 as well as v0.4 should have been released
by now… heh

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -’

SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

–
Robin Forster, Systems Engineer,
http://www.rsforster.ottawa.on.ca/

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 1:53pm

I’m not sure, actually. (I’ve given up on RPM for most things but
complete system installs.) I guess you need some package named something
like “SDL_image-*-devel.rpm” - the “normal” packages usually don’t
include the headers, which you need to install something from source.

I’d just download the latest SDL_image source tarball and install that -
always works for me.

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 19:39, Robin Forster wrote:

I downloaded it and then found out I needed SDL_image. I got it and
installed it using the RPM. Now configure still complains that
SDL_image is not installed! What am I missing here is there a line
needing to be added to ld.so.conf?

Max_Horn · September 27, 2001, 2:11pm

At 22:21 Uhr +0200 27.09.2001, David Olofson wrote:>On Thursday 27 September 2001 18:49, Robin Forster wrote:

Where can I pick up Kobo Deluxe? I checked the games section on the
SDL site but could not see it.

It’s the real name of “SKobo”, and will be used for v0.3.

It should have been released already, but too many other things went
wrong this week, so I haven’t had too much time to spend on it.

Anyway, there are some snapshots on the server:

http://olofson.net/download/

(the kobo- files)

Sorry about the bzip2 archives - they aren’t really meant for public
release, and probably won’t build out of the box on anything but Linux
and possibly Mac OS X.

I’ll upload the lastest version right now. (Not v0.3, though - I want to
make sure it builds on Linux, Win32, FreeBSD, Mac OS X and Solaris, and
perhaps fix some minor user interface details…)

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

PS: Hey, Max, I actually did add bilinear interpolation for v0.3, as
well as an “oversampled” variant; not just “nearest”! OTOH,
my plan was that v0.3 as well as v0.4 should have been released
by now… heh

WOO-HOOO!!!

Well, I will try it ASAP and see if all is fine on OS X still, and
give ya a go if this is so

Max

Max Horn
Software Developer

email: mailto:Max_Horn
phone: (+49) 6151-494890

magnwa · September 27, 2001, 2:16pm

Oooh… I just played it. I didn’t realize this game got nasty in the higher
levels Now . . to make a multiplayer version!

MagnwaOn Thursday 27 September 2001 05:05 pm, you wrote:

WOO-HOOO!!!

Well, I will try it ASAP and see if all is fine on OS X still, and
give ya a go if this is so

David_Olofson · September 27, 2001, 2:34pm

WOO-HOOO!!!

Well, I will try it ASAP and see if all is fine on OS X still, and
give ya a go if this is so

Oooh… I just played it. I didn’t realize this game got nasty in the
higher levels

hehe There will be enough resistance, I can assure you! >:-)

(You can always speed the tempo up if you’re falling asleep, but you
won’t get bonus score for it - yet.)

Now . . to make a multiplayer version!

Hey! Don’t push me. I’m dreaming about it already - and meanwhile I’m
looking into network programming for a project at work. I might end up
hacking for 24+ hrs straight again…!

Oh, there will be “on at a time” multiplayer as well, of course, but
there’s a heavy dependency on the planned player profiles and a new score
managment system. I’m considering fixing quite a few other things first.
(Including these “hires” performance issues - for now the only solution I
can see is adding OpenGL support, so that’s probably what I’ll do.)

//David Olofson — Programmer, Reologica Instruments AB

.- M A I A -------------------------------------------------.
| Multimedia Application Integration Architecture |
| A Free/Open Source Plugin API for Professional Multimedia |
----------------------------> http://www.linuxdj.com/maia -' .- David Olofson -------------------------------------------. | Audio Hacker - Open Source Advocate - Singer - Songwriter |-------------------------------------> http://olofson.net -'On Thursday 27 September 2001 22:20, magnwa wrote:

On Thursday 27 September 2001 05:05 pm, you wrote: