Portability versus the "Gee Whiz" factor

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

	Bob Pendleton

In my experience, I will buy a game that runs in software rendering if it
still looks good. If it’s like Quake 1, I’m out. Since I have a Geforce 3, I
really tend to head towards games that use the acceleration (I love the “Gee
Whiz” factor :slight_smile: ). Yet, some games, (Homeworld), look really good in
software rendering, so I don’t mind playing it :slight_smile:

----Original Message Follows----From: bob@pendleton.com (Bob Pendleton)
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Subject: [SDL] Portability versus the “Gee Whiz” factor
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There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

	Bob Pendleton

SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

???V?I?T?A?L?I?Y???


Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?
My experience is that gameplay is far more important than graphics. If you
have spent months playing Mordor you will know this. Good graphics help a
lot, but sometimes people (like me) can’t choose what hardware to buy.On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Bob Pendleton wrote:


Roger D. Vargas | El sistema se apagara en 5 segundos.
ICQ: 117641572 | Salvese el que pueda!
Linux User: 180787 |

video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

I’d be disappointed if a game still used software rendering, because software
rendering just doesn’t look as good (no texture filtering etc…).
However, it doesn’t have to be the latest greatest. Make sure the textures
feel right though. Half-Life used excellent textures in almost all places,
and it still looks good today.

My experience is that gameplay is far more important than graphics. If you
have spent months playing Mordor you will know this. Good graphics help a
lot, but sometimes people (like me) can’t choose what hardware to buy.

Actually, I think the most important factor for graphics is clarity. The
player must be able to quickly grasp what’s going on on the screen.
For example, compare C&C 1 or the original Red Alert with Tiberian Sun or
RA2. Especially the original RA has extremely clear graphics and you didn’t
have any problems telling unit types and player colors apart - even as a
novice player.
Clarity has suffered a lot in the newer games, which is a really bad thing :confused:

cu,
NicolaiAm Montag, 3. Juni 2002 18:03 schrieb Roger D. Vargas:

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Bob Pendleton wrote:

Bob Pendleton wrote:

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience)
will people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software
rendering, i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you
have to have accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D
hardware?

    Bob Pendleton

As the owner of 3dfx Voodo3 (no money to buy that GeForce3 yet…), I’ll
say that I want games to use 3D acceleration, but also to fall back on
software rendering, when specific features are not available.
I know my card doesn’t support hardware T&L and has only the basic
support for multitexturing, which are things used in most games today.
I don’t have too many games (this has nothing to do with having an "old"
3D card), but I know of one that said that’s it working on DirectX’s
software T&L – this doesn’t mean it works on software rendering, since
it does in fact use my 3D card acceleration.

I’m currently planning a game, and in the design document (which I’m
writing), it’s specified that the game should run on any hardware
utializing what it has, and emulating the rest. On the side notes,
there’s a joke saying it should even run on the oldest computers,
drawing the 3D enviroment in text mode… :slight_smile:
When the game will be built, it will adjust resolution, lovel-of-detail,
special effects, etc., according to the computer it’s running on. So it
will look much better (and run faster) on a GeForce3 than on a Voodo3,
but it will work and feel the same in both.

Hopefully, with OpenGL 2.0, it will all be automated - i.e. you program
once, and it uses hardware acceleration, software rendering, or any
combination thereof, according to the driver and the hardware. (see the
planned eliminations of extensions in the proposed implementation)

In short, you don’t have to go to any of the extremes. It’s ok for your
game to require a 3D accelerator to run (it’s also ok for it to support
only software rendering, but no need to rely only on software if most
people already have great harware for it), but it cannot requite the
very latest one.

RK.

http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/aalib
http://www.libsdl.org/faq.php?action=listentries&category=3#30On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 08:04:51PM +0200, Romi Kuntsman wrote:

utializing what it has, and emulating the rest. On the side notes,
there’s a joke saying it should even run on the oldest computers,
drawing the 3D enviroment in text mode… :slight_smile:


Matthew Miller @Matthew_Miller http://www.mattdm.org/
Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/

Personally I won’t care about software rendering.
The last time I used software rendering was in 1999, when
most people that I knew didn’t had access to 3D boards.

Nowadays, everyone that I know has 3D boards. So I won’t
bother to create my optimizations in software if most of
my ‘clients’ have hardware accelaration. It just isn’t
worth the trouble.

Paulo Pinto> -----Original Message-----

From: sdl-admin at libsdl.org [mailto:sdl-admin at libsdl.org]On Behalf Of
Romi Kuntsman
Sent: segunda-feira, 3 de Junho de 2002 19:05
To: sdl at libsdl.org
Subject: Re: [SDL] Portability versus the “Gee Whiz” factor

Bob Pendleton wrote:

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the
relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very
interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest
generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My
question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience)
will people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software
rendering, i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1,
or do you
have to have accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the
very latest 3D
hardware?

    Bob Pendleton

As the owner of 3dfx Voodo3 (no money to buy that GeForce3
yet…), I’ll
say that I want games to use 3D acceleration, but also to
fall back on
software rendering, when specific features are not available.
I know my card doesn’t support hardware T&L and has only the basic
support for multitexturing, which are things used in most games today.
I don’t have too many games (this has nothing to do with
having an "old"
3D card), but I know of one that said that’s it working on DirectX’s
software T&L – this doesn’t mean it works on software
rendering, since
it does in fact use my 3D card acceleration.

I’m currently planning a game, and in the design document (which I’m
writing), it’s specified that the game should run on any hardware
utializing what it has, and emulating the rest. On the side notes,
there’s a joke saying it should even run on the oldest computers,
drawing the 3D enviroment in text mode… :slight_smile:
When the game will be built, it will adjust resolution,
lovel-of-detail,
special effects, etc., according to the computer it’s running
on. So it
will look much better (and run faster) on a GeForce3 than on
a Voodo3,
but it will work and feel the same in both.

Hopefully, with OpenGL 2.0, it will all be automated - i.e.
you program
once, and it uses hardware acceleration, software rendering, or any
combination thereof, according to the driver and the
hardware. (see the
planned eliminations of extensions in the proposed implementation)

In short, you don’t have to go to any of the extremes. It’s
ok for your
game to require a 3D accelerator to run (it’s also ok for it
to support
only software rendering, but no need to rely only on software if most
people already have great harware for it), but it cannot requite the
very latest one.

RK.


SDL mailing list
SDL at libsdl.org
http://www.libsdl.org/mailman/listinfo/sdl

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor.

I don’t know about gamers in general, but when playing a good game, I’m more worried about the functionality and speed than the effects. My eyes just can’t trace motion properly if the frame rate is too low, and obviously, it’s hard to recognize distant objects at very low resolutions. Thus, it seems like I’m forced to use h/w acceleration, or Win32, which supports busmaster DMA.

As to “the very latest features”, it’s not like I’m going “Oh no, I can’t make use of this cool feature on my new card!” If it looks good and the frame rate is good, I’m happy. If I have to pay $500+ for the very latest overclocked video card, just to get a playable frame rate at medium quality, chances are I’m not buying the game, at least not until mainstream graphics h/w has caught up with it.

(Note that the main reason why I don’t have the hottest GF4 card is that nVidia’s crappy RAMDACs can’t drive my monitor properly, and I don’t feel like swapping cards or building another PC for one or two games. I’ll wait for the Matrox Parhelia 512 or something.)

My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

Well, it doesn’t look like any software only 3D games are released these days. If that’s because no one would buy, or because no one dares to sell, I don’t know. I would guess that it takes a lot more to get people interested in a software rendered 3D game, even if you market it through playable demos - but that could be because they haven’t seen what a software game could look like with the CPU power most people have today.

Anyway, I still play Doom and Doom II every now and then, using ZDoom, which is still a software engine. (Note that ZDoomGL is a separate project!) It’s not beautiful, but it’s fast and solid, and never drops to unplayable frame rates, unless you’re running insanely large and open levels.

I have to play it on Win32, though, as the Linux version is way too slow, unless I use very low resolutions. (Sure, Doom was playable at the original 320x200, but I find playing the game more interesting than scanning pixel jam for distant enemies.)

Whether I’d buy a software 3D game probably depends more on the game than on the engine. However, the game has to be capable of delivering acceptable frame rates (30+ fps) to be playable, and I wouldn’t want to play a 3D game at lower resolutions than 640x480. This is probably the most serious issue with software rendering these days, at least on platforms that can’t do busmaster DMA blits.

//David

.---------------------------------------
| David Olofson
| Programmer

david.olofson at reologica.se
Address:
REOLOGICA Instruments AB
Scheelev?gen 30
223 63 LUND
Sweden
---------------------------------------
Phone: 046-12 77 60
Fax: 046-12 50 57
Mobil:
E-mail: david.olofson at reologica.se
WWW: http://www.reologica.se

`-----> We Make Rheology RealOn Mon, 03/06/2002 10:54:49 , Bob Pendleton wrote:

If it’s a 3d game, then it should absolutely use 3d acceleration. Otherwise,
i’ll ignore it, as I have yet to see any 3d software game that ran at a decent
speed. For example outcast…On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:54:49AM -0500, Bob Pendleton wrote:

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

  Bob Pendleton

I’d think about buying it, but…

-opinion here-

why not have it be able to run in both? there are commercial games that
attempt that.

-Jim

“Bob Pendleton” wrote in message
news:mailman.1023119582.16734.sdl at libsdl.org

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits
of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards. But, gamers seems to be very interested the
the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation
of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question
is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience)
will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software
rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to
have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

I most certainly would not buy a game that looks like Quake 1, which
is the ugliest game I have ever played. 3D games in general look
ugly, and the older the technology, the uglier the game.

That said, I believe it is possible to create a decent looking 3D game
with software rendering.–
Rainer Deyke | root at rainerdeyke.com | http://rainerdeyke.com

Unfortunately, not everyone sees it that way, Take Outcast for instance.
Brilliant game both technically and visually (if you have the spec for it),
it had a great story and loads of depth but it got panned by many people
because it used voxels to render the landscapes and didn’t (couldn’t) take
advantage of the features on modern graphics cards. So someone with a Wizzy
3D card but a slow CPU/Memory combo suffered bad frame rates when the detail
was turned up. personally I loved the game, but I feel that it never had the
respect it deserved.

When Quake1 was released, Consumer 3D cards were in their infancy so gamers
accepted software renderring but I fear that age has long gone.

I bet Doom3 won’t have a software only mode… unless MESA will work with it.
Shame really because it will mean that when the current breed of 3D cards are
fogotton, the games will be unplayable.

JasonOn Monday 03 June 2002 5:03 pm, Roger D. Vargas wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Bob Pendleton wrote:

video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

My experience is that gameplay is far more important than graphics. If you
have spent months playing Mordor you will know this. Good graphics help a
lot, but sometimes people (like me) can’t choose what hardware to buy.

There is a lot of discussion on this list about the relative merits of
OpenGL versus software rendering. It is pretty clear that software
rendering is more portable between operating systems and between
different video cards.

This is somewhat true, though less so. These days, nearly every platform
has accelerated 3D and if yours lacks it, then it is part of the dying
breed and can safely be considered insignificant to the future of gaming,
as far as most professionals and hobbyists alike are concerned.

This isn’t to say that it’s not possible to make a genuinely fun game
without OpenGL. It is simply that, in large, games are not made that way
anymore.

But, gamers seems to be very interested the the
way games make use of the latest features of the newest generation of
video cards, this is what I call the “Gee Whiz” factor. My question is
simple, in your experience (not your opinion, only your experience) will
people (like you) buy a 3D game that is limited by software rendering,
i.e. it works any where but looks like Quake 1, or do you have to have
accelerated 3D that takes advantage of the very latest 3D hardware?

This is a bit of a trick question.

If the game is fun, I will consider buying it, regardless of what it
renders with. But given a fun game with a certain gameplay and crappy
rendering (especially crappy 3D rendering in software) and a game which
does a reasonable job rendering in OpenGL, I’ll take the OpenGL game
because the eye candy factor cannot be dismissed, all other things being
equal.

But all other things are seldom ever equal, as you must know already. It
is a safe thing to say that most of the modern games with all of this
lovely eyecandy lack any other real selling points, which has caused some
people to swear that 3D accellerators are the bane of good gaming. The
games being made by the industry just aren’t that fun since they’re mostly
(lame) ripoffs of other games we’ve played dozens of times already.

Think of it like an action movie. A movie which has lots of special
effects will probably sell big at the box office, but doesn’t make much
impact once the eyecandy factor wears off. A movie with less of these
great effects has to be better in other ways or it just won’t go anywhere.
Sometimes a great movie comes along with great story, great acting, and
lots of great effects. These are rare, but when one comes along, fans
quickly discover that this is the kind of movie they want to see! Too bad
these sort are produced so rarely.On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 10:54:49AM -0500, Bob Pendleton wrote:


Joseph Carter Here we go again

is that really knghtbrd?
No, I’m an EVIL IMPOSTOR!
An evil impostor who LIKES HYBRID!
haha
ok, it’s him :stuck_out_tongue:

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Doom3 requires that you have dot3 bumpmapping. No way in hell you’re
getting that with software mesa at 1fps on any CPU you’ve got. No
bumpmapping, no doom3.

They need the bumpmaps to put back the graphics detail they’ve gotta cut
out. You see, they’re using completely dynamic lighting, which forces
them to compromise severely on the number of polygons they can display
(and for once not because of the graphics hardware - no, the CPU just
can’t keep up!)

Support for software rendering is a joke in modern 3D engine design, and
it’s not even a funny one. It enforces so many artificial limitations on
both the engine programmers and the game designers that it simply is
beyond consideration for any team having the hardware to do something
better.On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:14:56AM +0100, Jason Farmer wrote:

I bet Doom3 won’t have a software only mode… unless MESA will work with it.
Shame really because it will mean that when the current breed of 3D cards are
fogotton, the games will be unplayable.


Joseph Carter Not many fishes

NOTE THAT THE ABOVE IS JUST AN OPINION AND SHOULD NOT BE
TAKEN TO INCLUDE ANY MEASURE OF FACTUAL INFORMATION. THE
SPEAKER DISCLAIMS EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. DEAL WITH IT.

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Were. Nobody is even considering that anymore. It’s just too slow to use
software rendering for 3D games. Most gamers don’t consider 30fps to be
good enough anymore. I certainly don’t - 45fps is my base target for
low-end hardware.

Modern games tend to be so CPU limited as it is that they just don’t even
have a prayer of running decently with the CPU sharing the rendering task
along with physics, culling, network, etc. Since Quake 1 was mentioned in
this thread, I will cite it as proof of my point. On my system, we can
get 91fps with Project Twilight (an OpenGL Quake 1 engine) with moderate
levels of eyecandy enabled. Why not faster? We’re clearly not pushing
enough geometry to keep even my little GF2 MX400 busy. That’s easy, we
have more than enough math to keep my Duron quite busy - and we could
easily give it more if we wanted to improve the accuracy of the physics a
bit or add a few of those other non-visual touches which set modern games
apart from older ones.On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:48:14PM -0400, Steven James Stapleton wrote:

I’d think about buying it, but…

-opinion here-

why not have it be able to run in both? there are commercial games that
attempt that.


Joseph Carter Have chainsaw will travel

Culus: wanna suspend me for it? :slight_smile:
Overfiend: Go maliciously crack a few severs and we’ll talk
Culus: damn, it has to be malicious?
Overfiend: Sadly, yes

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I bet Doom3 won’t have a software only mode… unless MESA will work with
it. Shame really because it will mean that when the current breed of 3D
cards are fogotton, the games will be unplayable.

Doom3 requires that you have dot3 bumpmapping. No way in hell you’re
getting that with software mesa at 1fps on any CPU you’ve got. No
bumpmapping, no doom3.

You are right, I bet Doom3 will shift more top end consumer 3D cards than any
other game and will probably be responsible for another big push from the
card manufacturers to improve their products.

But I wonder, what’s the difference in shelling out ?200+ for a new nVidia or
whatever graphics card to play Doom3 and shelling out for the current game
console?

Support for software rendering is a joke in modern 3D engine design, and
it’s not even a funny one. It enforces so many artificial limitations on
both the engine programmers and the game designers that it simply is
beyond consideration for any team having the hardware to do something
better.

UT had a software implementation, it wasn’t pretty but at least anyone could
play, not just people with 3D cards.

JasonOn Tuesday 04 June 2002 6:21 am, Joseph Carter wrote:

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:14:56AM +0100, Jason Farmer wrote:

[…]

If it’s a 3d game, then it should absolutely use 3d acceleration. Otherwise,
i’ll ignore it, as I have yet to see any 3d software game that ran at a decent
speed. For example outcast…

ZDoom on Win32 - but that’s actually just “2.5D”, so the wall texturing can be heavily optimized, compared to “free direction” texturing.

Besides, thinking about ZDoom (and others), I’d say software rendering is less portable than OpenGL rendering - simply because very few targets support the busmaster DMA blits that are required to achieve acceptable framerates. What’s the point if it’s “portable” if it’s only really playable on one or two platforms?

And another thing that came up, that I didn’t mention in my last post; optimization of a software engine. It’s different from optimizing an OpenGL engine, and much more of it is very low level code. My guess is that portability across CPU types will be at the expense of performance, to a much greater extent than with a higher level OpenGL based engine. The last two or three generations of CPUs have their greatest potential in SIMD extensions, which are inherently non-portable, unless you can use one of the few cutting edge truly SIMD aware compilers.

I think this will be less of an issue once those compilers mature, though, so maybe software is coming back eventually, along with very complex parallel CPUs. Or perhaps GPUs are going that way instead…? (Looks like it in the latest 3D chips.)

//David

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`-----> We Make Rheology RealOn Mon, 3/06/2002 17:33:23 , EvilTypeGuy wrote:

Because implementing a fast s/w rasterizer is lots of work, and it also requires different optimizations in the higher levels. Stuff that’s expensive in OpenGL can be cheap with a s/w rasterizer, and vice versa.

Of course, it could be done properly, provided the engine is designed from it from the start. (Not raycasting based like Doom, that is. :slight_smile: It’s just that it’s kind of hard to motivate all that work just to scale down to systems without OpenGL. (Or Direct3D, for that matter. I’d guess it’s easier to support OGL+D3D than either + s/w… But who gives a damn about D3D anyway!? :wink:

//David

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| David Olofson
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david.olofson at reologica.se
Address:
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223 63 LUND
Sweden
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`-----> We Make Rheology RealOn Mon, 3/06/2002 19:48:14 , Steven James Stapleton <stapleton.41 at osu.edu> wrote:

I’d think about buying it, but…

-opinion here-

why not have it be able to run in both? there are commercial games that
attempt that.

I bet Doom3 won’t have a software only mode… unless MESA will work with
it. Shame really because it will mean that when the current breed of 3D
cards are fogotton, the games will be unplayable.

Doom3 requires that you have dot3 bumpmapping. No way in hell you’re
getting that with software mesa at 1fps on any CPU you’ve got. No
bumpmapping, no doom3.

You are right, I bet Doom3 will shift more top end consumer 3D cards than any
other game and will probably be responsible for another big push from the
card manufacturers to improve their products.

One would hope that Matrox gets in there as well.

(Tired of fast 3D with crappy RAMDACs… :frowning: Cost is not an issue - but when not even $10,000+ cards (that you have to order built into a custom system, BTW) can do more than 1600x1200 properly, one gets seriously worried.)

But I wonder, what’s the difference in shelling out ?200+ for a new nVidia or
whatever graphics card to play Doom3 and shelling out for the current game
console?

Well, you can have a lot more fun with a computer with a nice 3D card… (Read: “hacking stuff”. :wink:

//David

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| David Olofson
| Programmer

david.olofson at reologica.se
Address:
REOLOGICA Instruments AB
Scheelev?gen 30
223 63 LUND
Sweden
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Phone: 046-12 77 60
Fax: 046-12 50 57
Mobil:
E-mail: david.olofson at reologica.se
WWW: http://www.reologica.se

`-----> We Make Rheology RealOn Tue, 4/06/2002 13:16:05 , Jason Farmer wrote:

On Tuesday 04 June 2002 6:21 am, Joseph Carter wrote:

On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 03:14:56AM +0100, Jason Farmer wrote:

Hiya,

You are right, I bet Doom3 will shift more top end consumer 3D cards than any
other game and will probably be responsible for another big push from the
card manufacturers to improve their products.

DO> One would hope that Matrox gets in there as well.

They are doing, along with ATi. For those lucky enough to see the
Doom3 press video, the graphics were done with ATi’s next graphics
chip, so looks like nVidia have competition again…

DO> (Tired of fast 3D with crappy RAMDACs… :frowning: Cost is not an issue - but when not even $10,000+ cards (that you have to order built into a custom system, BTW) can do more than 1600x1200 properly,
DO> one gets seriously worried.)

Go LCD! :wink:

Anyway, interesting though this topic is, it’s hopelessly off-topic.
Perhaps we can get back on-topic now?

Neil.