Rival library?

Hi you all!

I don?t know if I should ask this here, but…

What you guys think about the SFML? I mean, comparing it to SDL 1.2… and
to 1.3? (btw, Sam, when is it gonna come? :wink:

(just to tell you, I use and love and teach SDL for years, and now the
course want to change it for something more “modern” :open_mouth: argh! rs )–
Cleber Tavares Jr.
Diretor de Game Design

Iterum Game Studio
www.iterum.com.br

\//-

I asked Google what it was, and saw this snippet of a Wikipedia entry:

Simple and Fast Multimedia Library (SFML) is an object-oriented,
cross-platform, free and open source software multimedia API written
in C++

and that’s about where I stopped. (Plain non-object-oriented C is about
all I have the time and brainpower to understand, and it keeps me happy.)

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. (Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

-bill!On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:35:04PM -0200, Cleber Tavares Jr. wrote:

What you guys think about the SFML? I mean, comparing it to SDL 1.2… and
to 1.3? (btw, Sam, when is it gonna come? :wink:

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. (Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

Probably not. C++ doesn’t have a standard ABI, and if the whole library
is object-oriented, you’ll have a heck of a time getting it to talk to anything
that doesn’t share C++'s object model. (Or, more specifically, the particular
implementation of the C++ object model that the compiler used to compile
the SFML libraries uses.)

Unless, of course, they provide their public interface in plain old C like
SDL does.>----- Original Message ----

From: Bill Kendrick
Subject: Re: [SDL] rival library?

The SFML features page says…

SFML is available in the following languages :
C++
C
.Net (C#, VB.Net, C++/CLI, …)
Python
D
Ruby

But the FAQ (in the wiki) says that the .Net part is still in
development (i.e. SFML is not available in .Net).

The features page also says…

Portable
SFML compiles on standard platforms like Windows (98, 2000, XP, Vista)
and Unix systems (Linux, Mac OS X). As the library grows up, support
for more operating systems will be added.

Though the FAQ says that MacOS support is still in development and
non-Linux Unix systems are not supported.
The FAQ may just be out of date.

I have some misgivings about SFML, but it is probably a pretty good
library. The author has some animosity toward SDL, which is what puts
me off the most.

Jonny DOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Mason Wheeler wrote:

----- Original Message ----

From: Bill Kendrick
Subject: Re: [SDL] rival library?

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. ?(Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

Probably not. ?C++ doesn’t have a standard ABI, and if the whole library
is object-oriented, you’ll have a heck of a time getting it to talk to anything
that doesn’t share C++'s object model. (Or, more specifically, the particular
implementation of the C++ object model that the compiler used to compile
the SFML libraries uses.)

Unless, of course, they provide their public interface in plain old C like
SDL does.


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I asked Google what it was, and saw this snippet of a Wikipedia entry:

Simple and Fast Multimedia Library (SFML) is an object-oriented,
cross-platform, free and open source software multimedia API written
in C++

and that’s about where I stopped. (Plain non-object-oriented C is about
all I have the time and brainpower to understand, and it keeps me happy.)

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. (Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

-bill!

I took a look at the website for it (http://www.sfml-dev.org/) and they do
have bindings to other languages along with a C interface for people adverse
to C++.

From the website:

SFML is available in the following languages :

* C++
* C
* .Net (C#, VB.Net, C++/CLI, ...)
* Python
* D
* Ruby

I am not promoting SFML, just passing on some info. Personally, I have a
lot of time invested with SDL and find it to be a good 2D solution for
cross-platform development. And for people like myself who prefer C++, SDL
is easy to write wrappers for to create a nice OOP SDL framework.

In the 15 minutes I looked at SFML, I didn’t see anything that it does that
SDL does not do; at least if you include the commond SDL extensions
(SDL_image, SDL_mixer, etc).

Given that SFML is also Open Source, I certainly cannot see any drawback to
having an alternative to SDL, especially as a learning tool for programmers
new to games. There are definitely a LOT of similarities to SDL in SFML,
but that would be true of any library that provides similar functionality.

Ken

-bill:

Yeah, I like “plain non-object-oriented C” too rs but the new school wants a
object-oriented language / framework … whatever… (yeah, I know I can do
that with SDL…)

It has bindings to those languages people said (C inclusive, and .Net, and
Ruby, and so on…), but… Jonny D… “The author has some animosity toward
SDL”? Whats that? I talk to him, he seems a very nice guy…

Someone here in fact use it, for testing at least? And what about the
performance towards 1.2? (it?s far better, I wander towards the 1.3?) The
use of rotation/scale is very easy (I think it?s better than SDL_gfx…)

Well, thank you all for the opinions.

(SDL still rules \o/ rs)

The License is short, incomplete and … dangerous !

Absence of topics may cause problems in same countries.

The word “Permission” is very fragile in this document.

(Permission of ???, use ?, copy ?, shop ?, advertisement ?)

http://www.sfml-dev.org/license.php

SFML - Copyright © 2007-2008 Laurent Gomila

This software is provided ‘as-is’, without any express or
implied warranty. In no event will the authors be held
liable for any damages arising from the use of this software.

Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose,
including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute
it freely, subject to the following restrictions:

  1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented;
    you must not claim that you wrote the original software.
    If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment
    in the product documentation would be appreciated but
    is not required.

  2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such,
    and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.

  3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any
    source distribution.

Well, his interest is in drawing people to SFML. He has an SFML vs.
SDL benchmark, but he hasn’t learned SDL to the extent he knows SFML
and then compares software SDL to hardware SFML without making that
clear to newcomers:

Maybe I should modify the benchmark to use SDL 1.3 sometime, but I
still doubt he’d revise the premature conclusions at the beginning of
the thread.

Jonny DOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Cleber Tavares Jr. wrote:

-bill:

Yeah, I like “plain non-object-oriented C” too rs but the new school wants a
object-oriented language / framework … whatever… (yeah, I know I can do
that with SDL…)

It has bindings to those languages people said (C inclusive, and .Net, and
Ruby, and so on…), but… Jonny D… “The author has some animosity toward
SDL”? Whats that? I talk to him, he seems a very nice guy…

Someone here in fact use it, for testing at least? And what about the
performance towards 1.2? (it?s far better, I wander towards the 1.3?) The
use of rotation/scale is very easy (I think it?s better than SDL_gfx…)

Well, thank you all for the opinions.

(SDL still rules \o/ rs)


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

The License is short, incomplete and … dangerous !

Absence of topics may cause problems in same countries.

The word “Permission” is very fragile in this document.

(Permission of ???, use ?, copy ?, shop ?, advertisement ?)

http://www.sfml-dev.org/license.php

SFML - Copyright © 2007-2008 Laurent Gomila

This software is provided ‘as-is’, without any express or

implied warranty. In no event will the authors be held
liable for any damages arising from the use of this software.

Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose,
including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute

it freely, subject to the following restrictions:

  1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented;
    you must not claim that you wrote the original software.
    If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment

    in the product documentation would be appreciated but
    is not required.

  2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such,
    and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.

  3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any
    source distribution.

http://www.opensource.org/licenses/zlib-license.phpOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Ricardo Leite wrote:

Odd. Curiosity piqued. :slight_smile:

-bill!
(going on a decade(!) using SDL; thanks, Sam!)On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:34:51PM -0500, Jonathan Dearborn wrote:

I have some misgivings about SFML, but it is probably a pretty good
library. The author has some animosity toward SDL, which is what puts
me off the most.

You’re welcome!

You should always look around for the best tool for the job though!
You never know what you can learn from other people, and for certain
things other tools may be better! :slight_smile:

See ya,
–SamOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:34:51PM -0500, Jonathan Dearborn wrote:

I have some misgivings about SFML, but it is probably a pretty good
library. ?The author has some animosity toward SDL, which is what puts
me off the most.

Odd. Curiosity piqued. :slight_smile:

-bill!
(going on a decade(!) using SDL; thanks, Sam!)


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


-Sam Lantinga, Founder and President, Galaxy Gameworks LLC

Well, let’s just say that in my professional life I’ve had to
deal with BREW and J2ME, and in my hobby life I did a little straight
Xlib, and SDL is a joy to use in comparison. :wink:

While SDL is not the perfect tool, in terms of capabilities, for some
of what I need to do (e.g., Tux Paint), so many aspects of it
are beneficial that it ends up giving the best ‘bang for the buck’.

-bill!On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:57:31PM -0800, Sam Lantinga wrote:

You should always look around for the best tool for the job though!
You never know what you can learn from other people, and for certain
things other tools may be better! :slight_smile:

I’m glad. :slight_smile:

I hope 1.3 is even better!On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:57:31PM -0800, Sam Lantinga wrote:

You should always look around for the best tool for the job though!
You never know what you can learn from other people, and for certain
things other tools may be better! :slight_smile:

Well, let’s just say that in my professional life I’ve had to
deal with BREW and J2ME, and in my hobby life I did a little straight
Xlib, and SDL is a joy to use in comparison. :wink:

While SDL is not the perfect tool, in terms of capabilities, for some
of what I need to do (e.g., Tux Paint), so many aspects of it
are beneficial that it ends up giving the best ‘bang for the buck’.

-bill!


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


-Sam Lantinga, Founder and President, Galaxy Gameworks LLC

Hello !

I’m glad. :slight_smile:

I hope 1.3 is even better!

Who knows, maybe SFML will be ported to SDL 1.3
and then, B?M, you will get the best of both worlds.

CU

Right out of the box, the SFML source code fails to compile.
SFML: 0, SDL 1.
'Nuff said.

Jeff

(Note to the pedantic: If it compiles on your system, I don’t give a damn.
It fails to compile on my system, and that’s all that matters to any
particular user.)On Thursday 17 December 2009 14:57, Sam Lantinga wrote:

You’re welcome!

You should always look around for the best tool for the job though!
You never know what you can learn from other people, and for certain
things other tools may be better! :slight_smile:

See ya,
–Sam

I had thought of SDL as an backend for SFML. I haven’t seen enough of
SFML to know if the interface is worth it though.

Jonny DOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Torsten Giebl wrote:

Hello !

Who knows, maybe SFML will be ported to SDL 1.3
and then, B?M, you will get the best of both worlds.

CU


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

There are some C++ ABI standards:

http://www.codesourcery.com/public/cxx-abi/
http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-3.2/c++-abi.html
http://developers.sun.com/solaris/articles/CC_abi/CC_abi_content.html
http://www.codesourcery.com/public/cxx-abi/abi.htmlOn Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Mason Wheeler wrote:

----- Original Message ----

From: Bill Kendrick
Subject: Re: [SDL] rival library?

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. (Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

Probably not. C++ doesn’t have a standard ABI, and if the whole library
is object-oriented, you’ll have a heck of a time getting it to talk to
anything
that doesn’t share C++'s object model. (Or, more specifically, the
particular
implementation of the C++ object model that the compiler used to compile
the SFML libraries uses.)

Unless, of course, they provide their public interface in plain old C like
SDL does.


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

Yeah right, maybe we C++ programmers have a brainpower above the
average programmer. :)On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:35:04PM -0200, Cleber Tavares Jr. wrote:

What you guys think about the SFML? I mean, comparing it to SDL 1.2…
and
to 1.3? (btw, Sam, when is it gonna come? :wink:

I asked Google what it was, and saw this snippet of a Wikipedia entry:

Simple and Fast Multimedia Library (SFML) is an object-oriented,
cross-platform, free and open source software multimedia API written
in C++

and that’s about where I stopped. (Plain non-object-oriented C is about
all I have the time and brainpower to understand, and it keeps me happy.)

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. (Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

-bill!


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I don’t think it has to do with ability. It has to do with comfort.
I know people at work who stick with Fortran… and by Fortran I mean
Fortran 77! They certainly have the ability to grasp more modern
languages (really, Fortran is tough for me to even look at), but other
things hold them back.

Jonny DOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:

Yeah right, maybe we C++ programmers have a brainpower above the
average programmer. :slight_smile:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 02:35:04PM -0200, Cleber Tavares Jr. wrote:

? ?What you guys think about the SFML? I mean, comparing it to SDL
1.2… and
? ?to 1.3? (btw, Sam, when is it gonna come? :wink:

I asked Google what it was, and saw this snippet of a Wikipedia entry:

?Simple and Fast Multimedia Library (SFML) is an object-oriented,
?cross-platform, free and open source software multimedia API written
?in C++

and that’s about where I stopped. ?(Plain non-object-oriented C is about
all I have the time and brainpower to understand, and it keeps me happy.)

So it’s probably a matter of language taste. ?(Out of curiosity,
does SFML have bindings to a bunch of other languages, like SDL does?)

-bill!


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org


SDL mailing list
SDL at lists.libsdl.org
http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org

I don’t think it has to do with ability. It has to do with comfort.
I know people at work who stick with Fortran… and by Fortran I mean
Fortran 77! They certainly have the ability to grasp more modern
languages (really, Fortran is tough for me to even look at), but other
things hold them back.

Jonny D

Well put. Computer languages are like spoken languages in the sense you may
know more than one but there will always be one where you feel more
comfortable with when expressing yourself, one that you prefer the most,
etc. Also which one you start with makes big difference. Considered for
example, going from Chinese to Spanish or the other way around, big change.
In the other hand, Italian to Spanish or Spanish to Italian, not so.

-rOn Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Jonathan Dearborn wrote: